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sandy
New Member
23 Posts
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 Posted -
05/01/2010
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23:05
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Hi there, im sandy
I have been interested in the local history in the Gruinard and Letterewe area for some time, and have just come across your site.
I have been trying to find out about a drove road in this area and have realised there is a link with the Birtwhistles of Skipton. I went to Great Close this summer and took photos of it and went to the Skipton reference library to look up the books refered to in the links below, when i had finished harvest work on a farm in Bucks i went to london and saw the item refered to at Kew ( c13 / 791 / 18 ) although it didnt give much new information it listed Indetures going back to the early 1700's and i think before, it mentions names of people, but as it didnt refer to my area i am afraid i didnt write any of them down.
I am aware of the 2 links below.
www.kirkbymalham.info/KMI/malhammoor/greatclose2.html
http://www.settledistrictu3a.org.uk/nchtjournal/Journals/2008/Birtwhistles.html
I am also interested in Meyrick Bankes of Winstanley 1811- 1881( Wigan ) as he was the estate owner here from 1835 - 1881 when his daughter Maria Ann took over till circa 1901, he was an owner of coal mines in his home area ( and others ).
I was wondering if these names rung any bells with anyone.
yours
sandy
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sandy
New Member
23 Posts
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 Posted - 09/01/2010 : 19:38
Hi wendyf
Thanks for the link and the info in it, I managed to see Joyce Bankes writings upstairs at Leigh Town Hall on my short visit ( after sleeping in my car for a night ) i later went to one of the librarys in Liverpool and Up Holland Church.
I hadn't heard about the half acre of wheat,( wheat was not being grown up here at that time as far as i am aware ) i think Meyrick Bankes must have been very go ahead in his own way as i remember when he was thinking of putting in a railway for his coal mines he was told not to waste his time with such a new fad as it was an expensive waste of time, but he went ahead anyway.I think you are right about Meyrick being ' loved and admired ', he was a powerful man with a lot of money and contacts to back him up. Between 1865 and 1880 he took most of the surrounding landowners up here to court, he lost one case after working his way up to the Court of Sessions in Edinburgh and 3 years after he was still writing letters to his neighbour saying he was going to appeal too the House of Lords, loosing was not an option for him.
On another case when he lost and the island in the middle of a river didnt belong to him after the case, he blew it up so the winner of the case couldnt get it.
He evicted a lot of crofters up here ( many of them not due a penny in rent, their fathers and grandfathers would have been on the land before them ), the land was cleared for sheep farms which were rented out and bought in alot more money than the crofters rent.
Mercury,Thanks for the photo link as i dont have any photos.
Sorry for the delay in replying, the Broadband dropped off for a day or so.
Sandy
Edited by - sandy on 09/01/2010 19:49:12
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sandy
New Member
23 Posts
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Posted - 10/01/2010 : 23:52
With regard to Meyrick Bankes,at times i have a job trying to work out if he was trying to make a fool out of people ( as sometimes he was ) or is serious and trying to make money.
While visiting the House of Lords Archive i made notes of the item below, but the notes were only meant be of interest to myself and this area, however they would be of interest to someone with a knowledge fo the Orrel area and its coalmines.
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Vol 33 Evidence 1875, House of Commons Select Committee on Private Bills.
Pemberton Local Board Bill, 19 march 1875
petitioners Mr George Norton appeared as agent, the petitioner, Meyrick Bankes.
( This is a summary made by myself and not a complete copy )
Refers to the want of water in the district,and water supply. Proposed resevoir using 40,000 gal/day, resevoir to hold 24,000,000 gals.
page 38
Buildings are chiefly occupied by colliers and factory operatives are frequently in a dirty state when water is so very scarce. In some parts people use filtered rain water or failing that, take it from a ditch.
p 46
Mr Shortrede,? agent for Mr Bankes
Letter Dec 16 1873
letter to Mr Shortrede
Dear sir
The members of the Pemberton Local Board are anxious to consult Mr Bankes wishes ( so far as they possibly can ) in the matter of water supply ect, and we ask you to lay this matter before Mr Bankes, and after he has had the opportunity of considering it over, the board would be glad if he would kindly consult to see a deputation on this subject.
p48
Letter from the Board to Mr Bankes
Mr Bankes is intent on opposing their water scheme. Being hinself deeply interested in the township of Pemberton, we are envious of avoiding opposition and shall be glad to meet Mr Bankes or yourself and day you may want.
( letters going back and fore )
p54
Sample taken by Mr Shortrede, permission given to get sample ( 4th march ), went down a pit to get sample - put cork in bottle, Mr Shortrede filled it and we corked it.
It has been analized and it is unfit for domestic use.
( The Board are suggesting building a resevoir but Mr Bankes is opposing it and suggesting that they use the water in his mines as a source of water for the district.)
p55
As far as the proposal madeby Mr Bankes as to the pit to which is refered to in the petition. that is of no value whatever to you.
The Pembertom mines are the most exclusive in this district.
p61
Asking if it it is dangerous to put the resevoir above the mine workings -
The 4ft mine has been worked out and the 5ft mine does not exist on the position of the resevoir.
p77
I believe the fever of which you have spoken , the diarrhoea and smallpox have been a good deal distributed in parts of Pemberton ? - Yes.
Mr Bankes says water taken from the pit is the cheapest option and should be the Pemberton supply.
It has been suggested that it would cost approx £20,000 for the entire scheme to take water from the pit ( including the pumps ect )
p83
After looking at the 5ft water we do not think it could give sufficient supply for Pemberton / Orrel. When we got the water analized, the water was so wretched we have gone no further with the matter.
p113
Thomas Fisher, Doctor of Pemberton for 20 years
- People get water how they can, ditches/ ponds, any stagnent water, the people suffer much from epidemics in consequence of poor water.
The sooner we get water the better off we will be..
refers to Pingots well, best water in the area.
p121
When Mr Shortrede took the sample of water from the pit he cleaned the bottle before filling it and we corked it.
p 123
Analysis of water given -
Normal good water tested in parts per million.
This pit sample was in parts per gallon, it was very bad water and not fit for domestic use.
p131
sample Hardness solids Chlorine Alumernoid
Pingots well 15.6 22.1 1.61 0.09
Bankes pit 46.34 6.37 6.1
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Further info about Bankes pits
p 97,
William Houghton sworn to evidence, 73yrs old, 63 - 64 years in collieries in Lancs, 4 - 5ft mines, description of pit, part of it very wet, had to flee.
( Although i did not make a note of it, i remember them saying the water stank in the pit and they didnt not want to drink it from a cup, Meyrick Bankes must have known this as i believe he would go down the pit at times, yet he was suggesting that they use it for the new supply for Pemberton. I can not say more than i have put here as they are my only notes after reading 145 pages of evidence given. )
sandy
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 11/01/2010 : 06:18
That's the way Sandy. Posting research attracts others and it gets added to. Wait until the indexing bots pick up your response. It happens very quickly.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Bodger
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Posted - 11/01/2010 : 09:36
As an aside to the above, when i lived at Victoria, Hepworth, nr Huddersfield, 1937 / 53, the water supply came from Tinkers pit, pumped up to a storage tank at Hepshaw, then gavity fed locally, i don't recall any treatment plant, or anyone suffering from the supply, incidentally we also had electric from the same pit, this was installed in 1902 by Mr Charles Shaw Tinker, the mine owner, it just happened he lived about 3 miles past Victoria and our supplies were tapped of his source that he had connected to his house, not sure if we payed forr it or wether it was suppied free ?
"You can only make as well as you can measure"
Joseph Whitworth
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sandy
New Member
23 Posts
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Posted - 11/01/2010 : 10:14
Hi Stanley
Does that mean i'll have to put a hardhat on and hide under the table every time i put the pc on !
Hi Bodger
I was working at one time at Lovat Estate where they bottled water, the water filtered down through100's of feet ( perhaps 1000's ft ) of sandstone rock before being abstracted, they had to stop graizing cattle on the long term grass leys above as traces of the dung left was being picked up in the water samples, i suppose the surrounding rock would effect the content of the water.
sandy
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Tizer
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Posted - 11/01/2010 : 15:13
It's very easy to get the wrong idea about quality of drinking water in the past. You will read about villages that used what we now think of as poor quality water but seemed to thrive on it - "look at grandad, 99 and drank the water all his life, it must be OK". But when you look at the issue in a broader sense you realise that selection was operating, i.e. the adult population was not merely the grown-up child population. Of the children born, many would die in infancy and it is probable that many of these deaths were due to contaminated drinking water. The adult population were the survivors, who as children had a stronger constitution than the ones who died. As I often point out on OGFB, this kind of selection might be good for `strengthening' a population collectively but it's not very attractive for the poor souls who die or their parents when the death occurs.
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sandy
New Member
23 Posts
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Posted - 27/01/2010 : 14:29
I have another question.
I am in the process of lifting the concrete floor in the kitchen as the kitchen is being renewed. Underneath the concrete is general building rubble and gravel, i am removing some of this to make way for insulation under the new floor and have been sieving the gravel to remove the sand ( dont ask why ) and have come across Filter tips for cigarettes. The question is when did they start using Filter tips, perhaps for roll your own ?.
The house was built in 1881 but changes were made to it circa 1903 when the estate changed owners, the joiner helping doesnt think it is an original floor, pointing towards this concrete going down circa 1903.
This is on a remote part of the Scottish Highlands.
Anyone want to make a comment !
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 28/01/2010 : 06:01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_filter
First tips I remember were cork tips to stop cigarettes sticking to your lips. (Craven 'A'. Also claimed to be 'good for your throat') I can't remember filter tips being common until the 1950s. I doubt if the concrete is as old as 1903, far more likely to be 1960s.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
sandy
New Member
23 Posts
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Posted - 28/01/2010 : 08:20
Thanks Stanley
They weren't cork anyway, just the tips with no packet, I will enquire locally about improvements to the house.
many thanks
sandy
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sandy
New Member
23 Posts
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Posted - 15/08/2010 : 17:45
Hi there, I have another question although it has nothing to do with your area, the answers may be of interest to someone in a similar situation.
My Great Grandmother is buried in unconsectated ground ( Fulham Cemetry ), she was born in Crieff, Scotland and married in the Church of Scotland there in 1883, she had 3 children with her husband ( James Fraser ), the children were admitted to school in Fulham in 1897.
Susan Fraser ( my G-G mother) died in 1899 of TB and was buried in unconsecrated ground in Fulham Cemetry, no head stone.
During the latter part of their stay in London ( 575 Kings rd ) James was renting the "Adelaide", a beer house and apartments, he had a beer licence, they lived " above the shop" and i believe would have rented rooms for lodgings.
After her death her husband stayed at the Adelaide for a number of years before going to canada with his two sons, my granny stayed in London.
My question is, Why is she buried in unconsecrated ground ?
1, It doesnt mention suicide on the death certificate.
2, As far as i am aware ( so far ) she was not a criminal.
3, Her family in Crieff had a sucessful business and could have paid for a grave stone many times over.
4, Her sister was with her at the time of her death ( caring for her i suppose, as the 2 boys were around 10 yrs and my granny 15yrs ).
Could she have said " dont waste money, bury me in unconsectated ground, think of the children ?"
I was in contact with Fulham Archives and got all the info they have but they can't give any more leads.
sandy
If she was a member of the Church of Scotland would that mean she was a desenter in the eyes of the Established church in England ? as has been suggested to me.
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marlholes
New Member
1 Posts
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Posted - 19/08/2010 : 14:25
Hi everyone
I am new to this site and to family history. I am reseaching the Proctor/Procter/Prockter family from Briercliffe. My grandfather was John Arthur Proctor born in 1901. His parents were Arthur Proctor b 1882 and Grace Elizabeth Smith. From what I can gather Arthur was brought up by his grandmother Betty Proctor and his Aunt Sarah. Arthur's parents were Thomas Proctor b. 1862 and Alice Lambert - he had siblings Walter, Rennie and Clara.
Thomas Proctor was the son of a Robert Proctor b1822 and Elizabeth (Betty) Nuttall - they I think lived at Pig Hole Farm / Mill for sometime. Robert was the son of a Wade Proctor who married Mary Howarth in 1814. They also had a son called Wade who I have traced - probably easy due to unusual name.
I have found that Wade was the son of a Mary Proctor - but beyond that I know nothing - please if anyone can help I would be thrilled to hear.
Anne (nee Proctor) |
belle
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Posted - 19/08/2010 : 15:20
I have an Agnes Proctor in my tree b around 1850 married Richard Nutter.
Life is what you make it |
moh
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Posted - 19/08/2010 : 15:57
I think one or two have Briercliffe Proctors on this site - put Proctor in the search engine and it will come up with all it has on this name. Welcome by the way.
Say only a little but say it well |
sandy
New Member
23 Posts
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Posted - 25/08/2010 : 19:14
I have had a few answers from Archives, the one directly below is from a scottish archive concerning unconsecrated burials.
– both the Church of England and the Church of Scotland are both churches established by parliament and the monarchy, and I don’t think there was any kind of animosity that would refuse burial of individuals.
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The reply below in red is from Fulham Archives who i have visited and cover the area of Fulham Cemetery where the burial is, personally i think this the reply is correct.
Thank you for your email of 14 August. It is usual for sections of the cemeteries owned by local authorities to be consecrated by a Bishop of the Church of England, primarily for the burial of Anglicans. Other denominations, including Roman Catholics and Nonconformists, are buried in unconsecrated ground. As a Presbyterian, Susan McNee would not have been buried in ground consecrated by the Church of England.
I hope this is of passing interest.
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 26/08/2010 : 08:22
Sandy, everything is of interest to someone. The search bots pick up all references and you'd be amazed by the number of people who read these pages especially if it is an uncommon entry like this one. I knew there were some rules on burials but wasn't sure what they were. I suppose this still applies... As if it mattered what religion someone followed. I wonder if the same applies to cemeteries administerd by the War Graves Commission. Doesn't seem to so I suppose this means they are not consectrated which would surprise me.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
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Another Newbie
