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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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16/05/2007
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17:04
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Questions about this subject keep cropping up amid closely related topics, so I thought it may be a good idea to expand on the subject. I will not go on about my qualifications to discuss Canal Boats so lets just give it a go and see what transpires.
thomo
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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 19/05/2007 : 11:27
I think a quick bit here about "Canal Folks" could be informative, you could call them all enthusiasts and to live happily with your boat, thats what you need to be. "Enthusiast" can be broken down into three main parts, at the lower end there are water borne vagrants and those whose life style demands that their movements are covert, not easy given that canal communications are nearly as effective as the telephone. I was able to alert the local authorities of the impending visit of a known paedophile long before he arrived in the area. I n the middle you have your average enthusiast, these people love their boats and will put up with all sorts of problems and still smile, salt of the earth most of them. At the top there is a breed better described as fanatics, rivet counters, fans of the "thumping" engine. people who will mess with their pride and joy for hours to just to see how slowly they can get it to "tick over" My alternative to this being a modern efficient engine with a good silencer and a sound system to provide a variety of engine noises, steam whistles etc. Oh yes, I have met some interesting people on the "Cut" A few years ago I took Penelope Keith out on our day boat "Mr Punch" along with a camera crew for a water borne picnic, this was included in a short film about Pendle, as we approached the "Anchor" bridge, the landborne cameraman asked us to go back and make the approach again, it was with great delight that I was able to reverse the boat back around all the bends between other boats and in full view of the assembled "enthusiasts" (Canal Telegraph again) without a hitch. not possible with most boats, much applause on my second run. At the other end of all this happiness is the fact that on numerous occasions the little boat was used for the removal of bodies, just once we got one out alive, the poor woman begging to thrown back in. Back to the boats shortly.
thomo  |
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob
3044 Posts
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Posted - 19/05/2007 : 19:47
Thanks for all the info - a lot to take in but very welcome.Have done much research already but different perspectives are invaluable, especially from those really 'in the know'. Had our eye on a boat lying at a marina in Yorkshire but it keeps getting its price reduced so even to the novice there's something not quite right about it. Here's the spec: 57' x 9'6" built by Ledgard Bridge in 2000. Barrus Shire Diesel Engine. Eberspacher Central Heating with 6 Rads. 12v and 240v Electrics. Dakar Combi Inverter / Charger. Vanette Oven; Separate 4-Burner Hob & 12v Fridge. Full Size Double Bed. Bathroom with Full Sized Bath and Shower Over. Cassette Toilet and Wash Basin in Vanity Unit. B.S.C. to 2010. It's now just under £50k. |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 19/05/2007 : 23:59
Callunna, the alarm bells are ringing like mad. I have just had a look at Ledgard bridge's website, A. cause iv'e never heard of them. In the spec section it takes you through the shell build program from day1. to day 13. shell complete. Now given that I was workink on my own, it took me ten months to build "Red Admirals" shell, a further two months to fit items such as bow prop water tanks, windows hatches, skin cooling system, fuel tanks, engine controls, engine electrics, lub oil system, plus a further six weeks for the paint job, artwork and signwriting, and, the base plate was 12mm, so was the balanced rudder. I have had a look at photos of their boats, and my advice is "FORGET IT" If you really want some help, then I am quite prepared to look at a boat with you. Quite a lot of their pictures of dutch barges etc were artists impressions of completed boats that can be bought in kit form from a well established company. Their current price for a boat of 57 feet fully fitted is £114,000, a price drop of £64,000 in six years begs the question "WHY"? Going back to my previous imput "Canal Folk" You may be surprised that one gentleman! who came and worked at the yard for a while, was our very own "Stanley" local historian and old fart. Sadly a lot of commercial wide beam boats available today have one thing in common, they look like skips with a cabin on top. I will have to "boff up" on who's doing what. Maybe I should talk our Simon into a new partnership, but at 67 years thats heavy work. Please take care and do not be afraid to ask for help,
thomo |
Invernahaille
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Posted - 20/05/2007 : 13:03
Thomo. The suggestion of Liverpool was purely because it is near to you and accessable to the L&L. Wherever a dutch barge hull is, is irellevant providing you can transport it either by road or water.
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Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob
3044 Posts
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Posted - 20/05/2007 : 21:13
Thomo - your advice is so welcome, I can't tell you!What do you think of buying a secondhand boat with an extremely good basic spec (shell, engine etc), but in need of re-fitting? It's all down to cost and timing, you see. If/when we get a mooring we'd have to sell the house first to raise the money, but then there might be a delay while we find a boat that's within our price range, whether pre-owned or built from scratch - and that would inevitably leave us homeless for a good length of time. I need to run my business, including an internet connection, so we couldn't doss down on my mum's floor waiting until the boat was ready! A re-fit would take less time - or would it? I'm finding all my preconceptions are being turned on their head on this one! Here's another question. I was watching Jeremy Clarkson's "Machines That Changed The World" on TV yesterday, the one about the jet engine. It mentioned the Comet aircraft which had a nasty habit of crashing, and they put it down to a weakness in the structure caused by square windows, instead of round ones, when the cabin was pressurised. Now I know boats aren't pressurised, but do round portholes make a significant difference? |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 21/05/2007 : 10:55
"Inverhaile" My reference to Liverpool does not concern what may be found in its waters, what it does concern is that there is a boat manufacturer (not builder) in that City whos products have caused a lot of people a lot of grief. You will find that the term "Dutch Barge" applies to a basic design rather more than its point of origin. As in, very few of these in UK have ever been in Holland. If you examined the spec for a Dutch built boat, and compared it with the British version, you would spot the difference very easily. "Calluna" Now your heading in the right direction, and I can give you an example here and now. Within walking distance of Barlick there lies a boat that has been no further from Barlick than where it is now. Built, I think it was app, 1995 it was someones dream. I was there when the champagne broke on the bow on a frosty morning in April.. The owner who was a woodwork teacher at a school in Lancashire was going to fit it out himself. A series of family tragedies has resulted in the boat hardly having been touched in twelve years. Appart from the fact that it is a 57 foot trad, narrowboat, this would be your ideal project. It had a partial re-paint about seven years ago, it is lined out in oak, the bulkheads are in as is part of the galley and bathroom. The last time I went on board would be about six years ago following a break in and theft of the stove which had never been out of its box. I drove round there last Thursday and was shocked by what I saw. Take a look yourself. The boat was built at Barlick by Doug Moore and myself and has a BMC Marine Engine with all ancilliaries. Name is "Marsden Mist" as listed in the recently posted picture of that name, Which incidentaly was taken about five years ago. The owner can be traced.
thomo |
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob
3044 Posts
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Posted - 21/05/2007 : 11:17
quote:
Appart from the fact that it is a 57 foot trad, narrowboat, this would be your ideal project.
It sounds ideal, except that it's not a widebeam. I think trying to live permanently on a 6'10" boat is the reason why so many eventually give up and return to land. OK for one person, but two or more and it's just too constricting. I'm glad you haven't poured cold water on my idea to re-fit a suitable boat, as I think this is the only way we'll achieve our goal. I'd already copped on to the fact about the boatbuilder on Merseyside - I've heard a few people say the same! So Thomo - if you hear of a widebeam going spare, please let us know. I don't know whether you're still in the business, but if you are, it goes without saying you've got the job  |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 22/05/2007 : 08:49
At first glance, this might not seem to have anything to do with this subject..... give it a read, you might find that it is.
THE CHICKEN AND THE EGG.
We live in a world where modern technology and the search for economies of scale have resulted in more and more centralisation of powers. This is not restricted to governments, it applies to private industry as well, they call it globalisation. I have long held the point of view that when the quest for more ‘efficiency’ and cheaper manufacture reaches the point where ordinary people’s lives and essential services are threatened it is time to have a rethink. This is an enormous subject and I can’t possibly give a reasonable overview of it but perhaps a relatively small recent example will be illuminating.
The Parliamentary Committee on transport, in the course of looking at transport policies that would relieve pressure on roads and improve carbon efficiency, decided that there was a case for investing in specialised bulk transport on certain parts of our inland waterways. They asked British Waterways to set up a new Freight Division which they did.
In a different part of the woods, Margaret Beckett, the minister in charge of the Department for the Elimination of Farming and Rural Affairs was taking decisions as to how the new EU Single Farm Payment was to be administered. Ignoring the warnings from her officials and the industry she headed the introduction of a complicated system which proved to be a disaster. All this is well documented. What concerns us here is that this cock-up produced a minimum overspend of £350million in EU imposed fines which had to be recouped from Defra’s annual budget. With incredible speed and efficiency, DEFRA identified cuts in various areas of its operations that would seal the breach. One of these was their annual funding tranche to British Waterways.
This cut hit BW just as they were starting to implement the new policy of encouraging freight back onto the waterways so we had the interesting situation where one part of BW is starting a new operation and another part is identifying up to approximately £200million in savings. Guess what they did, they cut 160 jobs and in the process rendered many wharves redundant because there was nobody to man them. Redundant wharves in town centres equals development land so they had a fire sale. Are we getting the picture? They are working hard to encourage freight whilst at the same time slashing the human and physical resources which could make it possible.
There is much more detail of course but it would only bore you. The bottom line is that due to centralisation DEFRA was able to plug the hole in their finances by cutting support to other areas which came under their control. One has to wonder whether they even considered the consequences, indeed, did they even enquire what they would be? The man in charge of the failed SFP project was on gardening leave for a year on a salary of £114,000 and then retired with a pension. As for Margaret Beckett, where did she go? She’s the Foreign Secretary…….. Why should England tremble….. Is what we are looking at economies of scale?
SCG/22 May 2007
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 22/05/2007 : 11:23
Hear, hear, Stan. If you wished to redefine the term "Cancerous Growth" then "London" springs to mind. If something is illegal, overpriced, not working properly, unpopular, overbudget or just stark raving bonkers, then that is where it usually emanates from. There is a strong tendency in UK to spend a lot of time and money getting rid "of out of date" infrastructures, only to re-invent them later as new ideas at many times the cost of the original. Canals, Trams and Branch Lines being prime examples. To bring this back to Waterways, aa couple spent the winter at Barlick on their boat, during which most of his time was spent re-builing the boats "Russel Newberry" engine. He was a "Londoner" and a nice bloke, the boat was their way of escaping the pressures of that place. He was also an ex WW2 paratrooper and when asked if he still did any jumps declared that he could see no point whatsoever in jumping out of a perfectly good aeroplane!. "Thats real logic". More this afternoon on what to look for when buying a boat.
thomo |
Invernahaille
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Posted - 22/05/2007 : 18:55
Callunna,
The type of wide beam barge hull I was talking about are the ones that the ships used to unload into. I know that they can navigate the Leeds and Liverpool because a friend converted one many years ago and cruised the L&L. I can understand the bad reputation of the builder mentioned above, but these hulls had M.C.C.A. certification, and usually have some form of safety documentation when you purchase them.
Try the Mersey Docks and Harbour board, to see what they have for sale.
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Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob
3044 Posts
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Posted - 22/05/2007 : 20:28
Thanks Inv. Went on their website but it seems to be all about its history - can't find any reference to boats for sale.There's an interesting article in this month's Waterways World (oh, how sad does that make me sound - I wonder if it's been featured on Have I Got News For You yet) about a bloke from Pennine Cruisers at Skipton who's built a replica L&L barge. It looks fantastic but I bet it would cost a fortune. Eagerly awaiting Thomo's next installment... |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 23/05/2007 : 14:15
If any of the old L&L boats remain unconverted, then I would say that they are probably outside of Callunna's remit. Two main types here are "River Class" and "A class or Yorkshire boats". Two of the former came to Barlick with Doug Moore when he moved his business there from Riley Green. "Dee" which Doug called home for 15 years and "Wye" which as an unconverted boat transported the heavy equipment. My first job at the yard was the fitting out of "Wye" Doug moved into a new bungalow and later "Wye & Dee" were both craned out for hull work. I last saw "wye in a basin near the Royal Armouries at Leeds. "Dee" was stripped back to the original and sold to Simon Freer. Patched up with "Cement Boxes" backed up by three pumps working non stop it departed to be docked and re-built as a project, nearly foundering on passage through Nelson. Simons Mother Marilyn owns "Weaver" well known on the "cut" I have also seen "Kennet" and others whose name I cannot remember. These boats are definately "Enthusiast" material and require constant attention. Now Calluna, Windows V Portholes. Windows are more compatible with modern living, Portholes are better for security. It really is an individuals choice. I will inject a bit of general info here & a short Glossary of canal speak. Most Nautical Terms apply to canal craft, the most recent being the use of "Port" as opposed to "Larboard". The "Swim" of a boat is that portion underwater "Aft" where the Hull tapers in to the propeller. The length of the Swim determines how well the boat handles as does the underwater part of the hull at the "Bow" "Aquadynamics" "Bow Prop" Tube inserted through the hull "Fwd" which houses an electrically driven prop unit, this imparts a lateral movement to the hull Fwd, very usefull for manouvering, but pricey, and can create unwanted turbulence if not fitted properly. "Weed Hatch" a box fitted to the horizontal plate of the Swim and situated above the Prop, removeable watertight lid allows access to the prop for cleaning etc. "And" always put it back when finished! "Gas Locker" that part of the Fwd Hull used for stowage. "Well Deck" Fwd access and seating area. The rearmost often curved part of the |Hull is generally known as the "Transom" "Scuppers" are called "Deck Drains" on canal boats. On aircraft, best optimum performance can be achieved if the aircraft balances at one third of the wing "Chord" (width) the equivalent in a boat is equal to one third of the overall length. It is possible to "Spin a boat around in its own length if this is a built in feature. In the days of the "Horse" this was where you find the "Mast" or that part of the boat to which the Tow Rope was attached. "A Cratch" is an often detachable Cabin extension fitted over the Well Deck. "A pigeon Box" used to be just that, (for homing pigeons), Now often purely ornamental or better still, Engine room roof vent. And you steer your boat with a "Tiller". Right back to basics. "Holes in boats" best kept to a minimum. Below the waterline, the only holes that should be found are usually full of prop shaft or are fitted with a stop valve as in the case of a "Raw Water" cooling inlet. (This type of cooling is fast dying out) any holes above the waterline ie, waste outlets, bilge pump discharge etc should be as far above the waterline as possible, there are minimum required distances for these, and EU. laws change on a weekly basis. "Unwanted Holes" the most common scource of these is poor welding. "ALL" plate joints below the waterline and for at least 12 inches above should be welded on both sides, A lot of quickly built boats are not. All joints above this should be fully welded externally. A few years ago, a boat built at Burnley was launched at Bingley, and after "Popping" it into the cut everyone went to the pub for a "Wet" on their return, the only part visible was the cabin roof. It had not been fully welded round the swim. In my time at the yard I have done several "Cut & Shut" operations on boats, that is, cut the boat in half, draw the two halves apart and let a section in, thus making the boat longer. There is no finer way of determining the quality of a boat than that. This quantifies my comments about certain boat manufacturers, and I will extend this to many that were built in the Chorley area. In a good boat the quality of the welding is paramount, and equally important is the way in which is was done. "Rule of Thumb" if the plating "Dips" in at the external of joints, then beware, (and watch out for filler).
thomo |
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob
3044 Posts
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Posted - 23/05/2007 : 15:05
Thomo - I'm hanging on your every word I now just need to locate the perfect widebeam shell - welded properly, with the right proportions, efficient swim, decent engine etc etc - does such a beast exist, I wonder? I'm sure you'll let me know if you discover one. I'm not counting chickens, but there's the tiniest of possibilities that we could be in a position to take to the water by next Spring. I need to get some firm plans underway! |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 24/05/2007 : 07:49
http://www.bowcrest.com/
H, have a look at this site. A mate of mine, an old navy man who knows boats, and his wife are negotiating with them as we speak for Plover, a Dutch Barge. They might not actually have one but I'll bet they know the location of every wide barge or hull as they are in the business. If you want to talk to Alan and Angela drop me a mail and I'll put you in touch with them, nice people.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob
3044 Posts
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Posted - 24/05/2007 : 08:55
Phew - plenty to 'slobber' over (including a few called Slobber!) Most out of our price range/size limit but some have potential. Would need to recruit willing personnel to help us fit out as my DIY skills only extend as far as banging a nail in a wall to hang a picture.Thanks for the link, S. |
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