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Tizer
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16/01/2008
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16:27
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I've opened this thread to make a place for some pictures of motor vehicles - interesting or attractive or just simply curious. I've started it below with three pictures taken at a steam rally a few years ago. I've got a few more but please feel free to contribute pictures.
Tizer
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softsuvner
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Posted - 20/01/2008 : 23:20
I've found a few that might interest. First for RR:
This is a well known Fairground Organ from the Big League. These big machines were supplied to front the Bioscope Shows, tented moving-picture shows, which operated before permanent cinemas were opened.
This one is a 98 key Marenghi made in Paris in 1908, and supplied to Midlands showman Pat Collins for his No 2 Wonderland Bioscope Show. Most of the carving on the organ front would have been done in the UK by a specialist company at Burton On Trent called Orton and Spooner. Permanent cinemas soon finished the Bioscope Show, and many of the large organs, like this one, were used as the centrepeice of huge riding machines called scenic railways. In the end economics finished the scenics too, and the big Marenghis and Gaviolis were broken up or stored.
Julie might like this:
Traction engines were workhorses but, many of the makers competed to make their machines attractive in appearance. For many people like me, the later Burrells were the height of traction engine elegance, (and the American engines were plain ugly!).
Burrell No: 748 "Century" can't compete in the elegance stakes, but she has a real period charm. She was built in 1877, and is the oldest working Burrell in the world.
Stanley has already mentioned crawler tractors, couldn't resist this shot of a Ford crawler on offer at an auction some years ago. It had obviously stood for a long time. When they decided to move her, it was easier to bring the tree along as well. Don't know if it sold!
There were many makes of steam wagon, I've found photos of 8 different makes in my collection. But for now, this will have to do, a 1928 Foden overtype (so called because the motion is on top of the boiler like a traction engine), and a 1924 Sentinel "Super" undertype.
The Sentinel has been modernised at some time with pneumatic tyres on later wheels.
The Foden is called "London Pride" which is the name of a particular brand of real ale which, in my opinion, is one of the best!
Malcolm
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 06:16
Strictly speaking, Ford never made a crawler. The one in the pic is almost certainly a County Crawler using a Ford tractor for the basic engine gearbox etc. There was also a firm called, was it Roadless? Fowlers made the most impressive English crawlers and at one time ? tried to get in on the construction market with a modern crawler using a RR engine. Forget the name, it was impressive but never sold, Caterpillar had the market. As for Sentinel, I have a book published by David and Charles in 1973. 'The Sentinel. A history of Alley and MacLallan and the Sentinel Wagon Works. 1875-1930' definitive history and on page 175 it even shows a Sentinal crawler. This was Volume I, must have a look and see if volume II was ever written......
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 06:26
Oh, that's just great. Thanks. The Fairground organ is delightful...especially with the traction engine in attendance. Someone has told me that there are recordings available on CD. I’m on the hunt. The Burrell is very handsome and if I ever get (make) the chance, I will visit the museum in the old factory in Norfolk. Are the steam wagons in their original livery?
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 06:35
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=NOZUTFaRUQQOu6sfVG,FnziBURg_9465938606_1:5:258
Plenty of copies of the Sentinel here. I've just cracked and ordered a two volume set signed by the authors. I'll keep the original Volume one because it is one presented to Mr Simpson by W J Hughes in July 1973 thanking him for his help and signed by both authors. The Simpson family figure large in the history of the Sentinel works and Daniel Simpson made an early steam wagon at the Horsehay Works owned by his uncle, H E Simpson. The history is all in there...... go to it! (a week's worth of pension gone before breakfast....... must stop buying books!)
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
softsuvner
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 09:55
Stanley
I had forgotten about the Ford County. Lots of people used Ford tractors as a basis for all sorts of machines. Muirhill turned the standard Ford into narrow gauge shunting locos.
I can see what happened with the Sentinel books! Some years ago at an autojumble, I found a pristine copy of Ronald H Clark's "The Development of the English Steam Wagon" published in 1963. Unfortunately, the bloke selling it knew how rare it was, and the price was a bit steep. But you can't miss an opportunity like that can you?
RR
There have been loads of fairground organ recordings over the years going back to 78 r.p.m. days. Since tapes went out of fashion, you don't see so many. For me a little goes a long way, but, when I am in the mood, the best recordings are of the big Bioscope organs playing original period music (which is usually marches or light opera). I can't take to hearing an organ playing transcriptions of modern pop-type songs.
For my money, the best is a 98 key Gavioli known as "Whites Gavioli".
Recording seems to be unavailable at the moment (I pinched the vinyl record off my Dad!), but there is film of it on U tube.
Re query on steam wagon livery, I think the Sentinel is authentic, not sure about the Foden. Breweries were major users of steam wagons and a lot of restored machines are in the liveries of the old (vanished) companies. I will post a very early one for you when I get a chance.
Malcolm
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Tizer
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 10:31
I'm very impressed by the trees growing in the crawler - I've had moss growing in cars, but never trees. Perhaps it should be an exhibit at the Chelsea Flower Show!
And pleasing to see what Fuller's used to deliver their beer in the past - I agree on the quality of the ale.
I don't want to digress too much (famous last words), but the mention of Rolls Royce and music in the same thread reminded me of something I heard on Radio 4 the other evening. They were talking about the RR Brass Band and saying that unfortunately the BBC does not have any original recordings of the band and are looking out for them. So, if you have recordings, now's your chance to help the BBC!
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 17:41
Funny isn't it how your memory suddenly comes back. You mentioning Muir-Hill triggered me about the crawler that failed. It was Vickers who built it, had a RR engine and I'm sure I saw a one pot Fowler Marshall on tracks once. It was the Fowler Challenger I think that was the big one they nade. Ahh.... the Fowler Marshall, one of the strangest diesel tractors we ever had. The only tractir I ever saw that you started by hitting the engine with a brick......
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
softsuvner
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 21:33
Tizer
Brass Band was never really my thing, we left that to my Great Aunt's lot who were solid "Sally Ann"! Can't believe that there aren't recordings somewhere, there was a huge sub-culture of brass band music: Championships at Belle Vue, Black Dyke Mills, Fodens and Fairys etc. Is this the BBC recycling its tapes again like the "missing Steptoes?"
Stanley
I found a tracked Fowler, a "Gyrotiller" this was a design that they developed for Cuba and general plantation work in the 1920's. Originally with a Ricardo petrol engine (14 gallons per hour!) later with MAN diesels. I've seen a Field Marshall one pot on tracks, but you can't really blame Fowlers for the Challenger. In 1947 Fowlers sold out to T.W. Ward, and dropped their range of tractors in favour of Marshalls, who were also owned by Wards. Hence the tracked Marshall (the VF) and "Challenger" which were really Gainsborough products. Not sure what date this one is, they were made in sizes from 75 hp to 170 hp.
Here's a very early wagon. Before they turned to the I.C. engine, Thorneycroft made a successful early steam wagon, this one from 1901 is a two cylinder compound. I first saw this one when it was presented, unrestored, at a traction engine at Woburn Abbey in (gulp..) 1958!
Two more steam wagons, a Sentinel and a, very rare, Garratt. As you will now know Stanley, the Sentinel is an S type, a 1937 S4, really the end of the development line, but a sophisticated machine for its time.
Garratt made an overtype that looked very much like a Foden, but in the 1920's they switched to undertypes with little success. This one from 1931. Leaving aside the early type wheels, it just doesn't look right compared to the Sentinel.
Finally a diversion,sort of, off topic. We talked about fairground organs, here is the sort of machine that they inhabited (the big ones anyway):
When showman started to move beyond straightforward rides like a set of gallopers (carousel to you Transatlantic types) the switchback was one of the first of a new generation of rides. This is basically a circular track with two 'umps and two 'ollows, Six cars are driven round it by rods and chains from a central wheel. All this is driven through gearing from a steam engine in the centre of the ride, as with steam gallopers. Later came the scenic railway, the same ride but with individual electric drives to each car doing away with the centre engine which gave space to put in "scenery" in the centre, including waterfalls, fountains etc. The economics of these rides saw their demise in the 1930's.
This machine, the first switchback, built by Savages of Kings Lynn in 1890, is the last of the whole breed. Not as big as the "scenics" but this is still a huge machine, 50ft across, 60 persons per ride, nine truck loads to transport. Today it is on working display at the Thursford Collection in Norfolk. The organ by the way is a 98 key Gavioli (cut down from a 110 key Bioscoipe instrument).
Malcolm
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Big Kev
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 22:23
I had a ride around Whitby in this lovely old beastie....
Big Kev
It doesn't matter who you vote for, you always end up with the government. |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 22/01/2008 : 07:41
The Gyrotiller was the huge set of rotating tines on the back of the Challenger. They were quite popular after the war because years of ploughing with Ford tractors had consolidated the bottoms of the furrows on clay land into 'plough pan', very much like 9 inches of top soil on top of a concrete yard. Ruined the drainage and the existing tractors were't powerful enough to handle sub-soilers on the ploughs. To give you an idea, on the land I first went to farm on the new Ford Major could only handle two furrows. The first wheeled tractor I saw that could plough three furrows was the Super Farmall BMD with a 50hp engine. A few contractors had crawlers and gyrotillers and the idea was that they stirred the subsoil without bring it to the surface. Trouble was they destroyed everything they hit including old sod and brush drains and water pipes. I once saw a bloke with a gas axe cutting 3/4" water pipe off one of the rotors on a gyrotiller, it was wound round it just like a cotton reel. The driver just thought the tractor was pulling hard.
The Field Marshall had one peculiar little trait. During the summer of light work and lots of ticking over (it was easier to leave them running than start them) the big exhaust pipe used to coke up with carbon and the first time you really put them into the collar when ploughing the carbon would start burning and you had to endure red hot lumps of burning muck shooting out of the stack until it burned itself clean. There was even a drain in the bottom of the manifold to let excess oil run out while working light.
Is that Garratt above the one that ? at Gisbourn brought back from Oz and refurbished?
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
belle
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Posted - 22/01/2008 : 11:41
Stanley , your stories about old tractors are priceless... i loved the bit about starting the engine with a brick!
Life is what you make it |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 22/01/2008 : 15:58
Quite true Belle. The Field Marshall had one big cylinder and whilst it was theoretically possible to start them with the handle it took a strong man. You had starting cartridges, almost like a 12 bore cartridge but specially loaded. You popped one on the breech on the engine, closed it and hit the peg sticking out of the top to fire them. Anything heavy would do. They were very unbalanced as well and if it was just ticking over the whole thing lurched backwards and forwards on the soft tyres. Good machine though and went on forever.
Funniest thing I ever saw (to me anyway) was one day when I was using the David Brown crawler on a very steep slope. I was turning at the top and suddenly there was a bang in the gearbox and I lost drive. Turned out that the mechanic who had sorted the selectors out on the gearbox about two months before had left a spanner in the box. It was the steep slope that shifetd it. Problem was when they sent him out to it he had to own up because his initials were on it........
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Bodger
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Posted - 22/01/2008 : 19:57
Sorry i have'nt a pic. but as a lad in the 1940/50s, i recall around the Holmfirth /Penistone area a crawler, Mineapolis Moline, i have know idea how it came to be in the area, but there were American army men staioned there guarding stacks of bombs that were stacked in large piles along the side of the local roads , i'm wodering if it came over with them to facillitate the movement of the bombs ?. PS. ther are still remains of the army bunker on the Maythorne/Ingbirtchworth road?
Tony
"You can only make as well as you can measure"
Joseph Whitworth
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softsuvner
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Posted - 23/01/2008 : 00:00
Stanley
Never worked with a Marshall, but didn't the handle-start involve putting a thing like a smouldering roll-up (a paper with salt petre) into the cylinder? I remember somebody pointing out a thing with big wing nut that you inserted the paper in. I imagine if she misfired, the consequences could be interesting!
I've seen Minneapolis Moline wheeled tractors at rallies. Imagine they came over as Lend-Lease.
Malcolm
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karlelden
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Posted - 23/01/2008 : 04:30
Minneapolis Moline made many crawler types, and no doubt they made their way across the waters during the war. They're very common around here at shows. They were built in a suburb of Minneapolis, about 40 miles from my home. My brother has a Minneapolis Moline GTS, been in the family since new in 1941. Wheel tractor, and my uncle had option of buying steel wheels or rubber tires. He chose rubber, and the tractor looks strange! A little like a race car with a jacked-up back end. I'll try get a picture on here later.
Karl Elden |
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Motor vehicle pictures
