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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  11/01/2009  :  06:04
New Year, new topic. If you want to see the old one do a forum search for same title but 2008.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 25/01/2011 : 06:16
So they were all failures then. Oh dear I got it wrong again. I thought they did a good job of rebuilding a shattered infrastructure after a World War.

Of course they were expensive! It was lack of investment that drove them into the condition they were in both pre-war and in 1945. Private industry was incapable of injecting the capital needed to rebuild the country. Add to the benefits the improvements in working conditions and the advantages of services that worked.

Of course mistakes were made, they happen in private industry as well. On the railways the biggest mistake was to by-pass electric traction for what looked like cheaper diesel power under goverment pressure to keep capital costs down. Ravenscraig was a mistaken political decision taken by MacMillan because the tories were weak in Scotland and couldn't afford to be seen as basing steel production in Wales. Actually the best place for a new integrated steel works was Jarrow but the tories refused to consider it on political grounds. British Gas bore all the expense of turning the industry over from coal-based gas to natural gas. Once that massive investment was made and the industry was capable of making profit what did the tories do? They sold it.

As for subsidy of the privatised industries. The customer subsidises them direct, who do you think pays the dividends? Have you noticed that prices go up faster than inflation or wholesale prices? Then there is the whole question of overt and covert subsidies still being paid. Privatised rail gets more subsidy  that BR ever did and in case you hadn't noticed there was covert subsidy of the high speed rail line and the Channel Tunnel. Sell-off of electricity was impossible until the taxpayer took the massive responsibility of the ageing nuclear stations with all their problems, paying for that is a subsidy to the privatised electricity generation industry. Have you noticed government subsidies for green energy? The gas industry loads price increases on to domestic supplies to keep industrial gas competitive, so the customer subsidises that. Why do you think the accountants separated the various branches of the company?

No Frank, selling the family silver off for a quick buck was a bad economic decision. It was badly done with only two views in mind, political dogma and a quick cash injection into a failing economy. Remember the way Major dashed for rail privatisation in the last days of his government? Look at the results. Look at the closure of economical pits in order to attack the Miners Union. Far better to have allowed private investment and management under joint ownership with the government retaining the Golden Share. Things would look a lot different now if that policy had been pursued, no foreign control, power to prevent decisions that penalised the customers and over half of any profits would have gone back to the Treasury.

On second thoughts Frank, you are still wrong!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2011 : 17:03
Sell-off of electricity was impossible until the taxpayer took the massive responsibility of the ageing nuclear stations with all their problems

And who should have that responsibility pray ?? It was just left with the people who built them, no share holder in the World would take that on.
Stanley we had no Money for Investment the World caught us up to quickly, in Steel and Ship Building etc.!!!
Selling the Silver for a good price was not economic madness, it was good sense we got the best price for a bunch of failing industries.
The Channel Tunnel was built to increase Trade with Europe our Major Export Market
I would like to agree with your Analysis, but it just won't stack up.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Phil
Regular Member


104 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2011 : 19:24
I have suddenly realised that in "Frankworld" everything that Labour did is bad and all that the tories have done is good. Therefore I suggest that by application of Frankworld logic all privatisations are bad. The reason for this FACT is that the first privatising of publicly owned companies were made by Labour in the late 1970s, and all the sainted Thatcher did was follow the lead set by Labour. So there it is proved by the self same logic that Frank applies to all his arguments/discussions/facts, that all that Labour does is bad and doomed to failure, ergo this must PROVE that all privatisations are bad as Labour thought the policy up and applied it first!!!!!!


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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2011 : 21:13
Government decisions are always GOOD and BAD, depending on the bias of ones analysis.  In Ontario we were supposed to be heading for power shortages, the government of the day took steps, private initiatives etc to head of the issue....look forward to the reduction in use of power....due to warmer winters, economic conditions etc...The same government is now taking flack because we have too much power....in fact on a few occasions recently we have had to PAY (as much as a million GBP at a time) to the USA and Quebec to take our surplus power.


HERB


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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2011 : 21:15
I forgot to add that monthly bills are going up at 10% or more each year to cover the cost of investments to ensure that we have enough power.


HERB


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2011 : 21:30
Phil
Welcome to the discussion
Pray Tell me which Privatisation has been reversed by a Goverment of any colour ?? If it's that bad or wrong a policy, it would have been reversed would it not ???

By the way Franks World is the Real World, of Tax Payers and Council Tax Payers, not the Cosy World of Socialism were everyone is entitled to have a Share of Someone else's Money.
With so many Socialists on here I still wonder how Pendle has a Conservative MP !!! are you all out of step with the local electorate ???
I read Stanley's posts and think, I better phone the Govenor of the Bank of England  because the  poor man ( Merv ) can't understand, this all happened in the 30s and everyone is following the wrong course. The MPC don't know what they are doing they never read what MacMillian said to Maggie ?? Really

On privatisation only thing I would say is  Please don't let the Past, Stop You Progressing to the Future. The past was pretty bleak !!!

Edited by - frankwilk on 26/01/2011 9:53:44 PM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2011 : 23:23
 Re. Franks comment:-  I saw this on Dizzy today and it made me smile

"Socialism = We all get to share your cake, just my slice has to be bigger than yours' to make it equal. "


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2011 : 01:01
"Frankworld"...has just entered the OGFB  vocabulary....Hooray !

(as long as it isn't deleted....eh  !)

Edited by - Bradders on 27/01/2011 01:22:24 AM


BRADDERS BLUESINGER Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2011 : 05:51
Brilliant Phil. But remember we also have Stanleyworld and the difference is that I seek out the evidence, mull it over and say what I think backed up by evidence. I got mail the other day from an old mentor who has just retired. (He's younger than me actually) He said that the reason he likes hearing from me about the way I handle retirement is that I keep walking, reading, thinking and making public statements on my findings. Stanleyworld isn't based on dogma, isn't tribal and is backed up by evidence.

Frank, privatisations that have been reversed?  The last one was in 2004 when maintenance, signalling etc on the whole of the network was taken back under public control because the privatised mechanism had failed. There is also the small matter of the banks that failed.... You say they were profitably sold-off. Not true, they were sold for a song in order to persuade private capital to move in. Not surprisingly they now value the assets far above what was paid for them even taking into account the money spent on upgrades under privatisation. And before you leap on that one, most of the improvements have been paid for by direct government subsidy.

Frankworld is a strange mystical place where miracles happen under private ownership and public ownership is always bad. Nothing is ever said about the whole of the infrastructure that supports our lives much of it started privately in the 18th and 19th centuries but taken into public ownership because they were in such a mess. Interesting thing is that when that started happening because of the terrible conditions in towns it was attacked by the money people as 'Municipal Socialism'. Think the whole of the transport system, all water undertakings, drainage and sewers. Think coal mining, taken over by the government during WW1, handed back to the private owners and had to be taken over by the state again during and after WW2 because the private owners made such a mess of it. Think rail effectively brought under public control in 1923 when the government had to step in and rescue a failing system and fully nationalised after WW2 because it was obvious that private ownership couldn't rise to the challenge. Within twenty years we had an efficient, profitable mining industry with good working conditions and the best safety record in the world.

Without all that government intervention and investmant there would have been nothing to privatise. But this never appears through the fog of Frankworld, only attacks on 'Socialism' which Frank equates with 'Reds under the bed'. He appears to have completely missed the fact that I am not a 'Scialist' in his terms, but a democratic socialist and in case he hasn't noticed we can be found in all the political parties, that's why I like the Harold Macmillan of 1936, he had seen the Great War and came back a changed man. When he lost his seat at Stockton in 1929 (regained it in 1931) he was described as 'The Socialist Captain Macmillan. It was with his encouragement that M'gonicle wrote the first book ever to give proof that poverty was a cause of malnutrition. We DMs are people who believe that society should be run for the benefit of the whole population, not just for a thin crust on top skimming off 90% of the money.

Frankworld is obsessed with the danger of 'Socialism' but misses the point, the question is how many democratic socialists are there in the Labour Party? Not many in my view and that's why I cancelled my long-term membership and support of the Party in 1999. I transferred my support to local people I knew were still men and women of principle. As for the question of how many people will vote Labour in Pendle at the next election we shall have to wait and see. I'm content with that.

No Frank. Come up with some solid evidence and arguments instead of just spluttering. You could always do some nostalgic reading...... Perhaps that would help to clear the mists of Frankworld and the sun could break through.

Oh, by the way. I almost forgot. Read what Mervyn King says and understand it. He is only too aware of the problems and that's why his public pronouncements often seem to be out of step with the government. Problem is that he has no control over economic policy, only peripheral influence. His task is to manage the money supply in the real world. If you think he is content with the structure we have now you've completely misunderstood what he is saying. He's a lot closer to my view than you have realised.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
handlamp
Senior Member


1100 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2011 : 10:39
Frank, dear boy, as Stanley says, in the interests of safety, track maintenance  had to be taken out of private contracting and put back under Network Rail (a firm ? that doesn't know what it is, apart from being a gravy train for its members). As for the rest of the rail industry, they just can't afford to buy out the franchise contracts etc. although it is admitted that it would be cheaper,  more efficient and safer to run as a nationalised or, if the spirit moves you, vertically set up private concern.


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2011 : 11:45
It  is interesting to step back a little as we are doing now, and assess what motivates our opinions. I am neither a Tory nor a Socialist, and I am certainly no Lib dem. I would shy away, and did do, from the far left and the far right, for me perhpas New labour served me best, and they were hated by all!
We are hearing this week about how a large percentage of the cabinet are millionaires who went to Eton, of course in the pre-war years it was only men like these who were literate and educated, and so they ran everything, from being officers in the forces, to clergyen, doctors, MPs, justice of the peace, etc. and the rest of us did as we were told, we had no right to an opinion because we were uneducated. Britain still has the hangover from this and it is an ageing dinosaur in the techno world that is evolving... a world where most are literate and many educated and able to access more information than they could possibly handle in a lifetime, now everyone has an opinion, and they feel theirs is of equal weight to everyone elses. That has to be a step forward, but it isn't to be confused with socialism.
Today on a 15 minute car journey i listened to the news. i learnt that the Govt was scrapping Nimrod jets, thinking of  scrapping weekly bin collections, scrapping new school buildings, and selling off Britains forests, I don't remember them explaining to the voters this was on the cards before they voted .... what we are lving in now seems more like a dictatorship than a democracy to me!


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2011 : 14:23


quote:
belle wrote:
 
We are hearing this week about how a large percentage of the cabinet are millionaires who went to Eton, of course in the pre-war years it was only men like these who were literate and educated, and so they ran everything, from being officers in the forces.....

There is a big difference now, belle. The current bunch of muffins are "New Money" millionaires whereas the old guard tended to be "Old Money" millionaires. They have vastly different outlooks and ethics due to their arisings.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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tripps
Senior Member


1404 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2011 : 14:32
I note that in the current furore over Mobile phone voice mail "hacking" , no one has asked any victim why they did not change the access pin number.   Try claiming insurance on your stolen car when you left the keys in the ignition, or for a burglary when the doors weren't locked.


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2011 : 16:19
I think that was the point i was making Cat..things have moved on!


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2011 : 18:19
" As for the question of how many people will vote Labour in Pendle at the next election we shall have to wait and see. I'm content with that ".
You flogged a Dead Horse last time around though didn't you ??
Not as content as I am with the last one lolol.

Lets look again at British Steel

Would  a Private company Build  Llanwern  and Ravenscraig when One Plant would have been a much better proposition ??
I think the answer to that would be No then !!!!

I know Rail Disasters only happened after Privatisation !!!! Look a couple of other ones up.

Ted the Privatisation of Rail was rushed ( franchised) rather than a Sale, because Labour said they would re nationalise if they won the election, but they never did.
One thing I take comfort from about Franksworld, is that   Dinosaurs are Extinct

Stanley again Don't Let the Past Stop You Moving to the Future
 



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
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