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Invernahaille
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26/06/2006
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04:02
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Edited by - Invernahaille on 10 April 2007 04:41:19
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James Powell
New Member
22 Posts
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Posted - 13/07/2011 : 00:53
First experience was HMCS Algonquin/HMCS Huron, with 2x FT4's, 2x570KF's (Allison), 3x Saturn Solar GT alternators, 2x prewets which were gas tubine. Then to HMCS Mirimichi, with a pair of GM 268A Aluminum block engines, and a pair of (replacement) Detroit 6-71's, on the generators. Off to my 5's course, then back to HMCS Protecteur, from 2002-2006, SBU (pronouced "SPEW", as one would expect !) for 18 months, then back to PRO. I've been to the persian gulf in both 2002 and 2008, and been around the world both ways. (west-east, part by ship, part by plane, and east-west by ship exclusively). That being said, I'm likely the leader of the Tadpole Liberation Army for our next trip south, if we go over the equator. (I'm a unclean Tadpole, not a shellback)
I'd like to know who the genius is who thought it a good plan to name the new icebreaker for the Falklands HMS PROTECTOR. (note, missing C and U only...) We're both icebreakers, although I think that the RN one will be much more capable at ice than us. (we've been north to Churchhill, MB, once). Ah well...when someone calls for the wrong one, it'll be funny. Once.
I've got a fair # of books that date back. The McGraw Hill Stationary Engineering books are quite good, as are the ICS ones (both the Loco and Stationary courses). I've got some of the 1939-1952 Model Engineers here, and dad has most ME's from the mid 1920's on, so I know who LBSC, Edgar Westbury, Tubal Cain & Martin Evans are.
PO2 James Powell
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 13/07/2011 : 05:16
Bodge, here's a LINK that takes you direct to the Doxford pics. Just like my shed but a bot bigger. I particularly liked the use of the slotter to shape the cranks, Newton told me that was how they did it but I've never seen it done before. Just look at the cut he has on! Fascinating.
Jamie, Tubal Cain was a miserable old bugger. I once found the coffin with all the chucks for his Holtzapfel OT lathe. They got separated from his lathe in the 1930s. I rang him and told him and I think he offered me £100 for it and them! He got a very dusty answer, they went to an OT Nut in London.....
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
James Powell
New Member
22 Posts
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Posted - 13/07/2011 : 07:16
Well, we've had words towards the sky at more than one designer- like the clown for our ship, who thought that putting the evaporator overboard discharge valve behind the whole lot of the vap was a good idea. It's not. Not when a normal sized person can't climb, shimmy, slide, snake, proceed, mountain goat, or otherwise get at it to close the valve. Really, what were you thinking ?
A bit more about PRO- we're a steam turbine ship, with a cross compound main engine built by GE, then 2x 1MW(e) Turbo Alternators made by AEI, 3 steam driven feed pumps (Cofflin type CG), and 3 Weir cargo pumps and a steam turbine driven Forced Lube pump. Oil is pressure supplied, no gravity tank. Remainder of aux are electric- FD fans, DFO service/transfer pumps, extraction pumps, transfer pumps ect. She is electric dependant- the 3rd worst thing to do is black out. (loosing both boilers is worse, and loosing MELO is, well...the end). Boilers are B&W modified D's, running 865 F/600PSI, 107 kLb/hr feedwater flow/side. She's 41 years old, and requires a lot of TLC to go to sea, as can be expected. We keep on getting promised a replacement, so far, it's been announced x3 since I've been posted to her, and there's no contract let.
In general, the group of Mar Eng's, and ElectricalTech's who work on her are a great crowd. (same as any ship, I suppose). It's the crew which make or break a ship like her though, because of the requirement of constant work to keep her able to sail. Lots of things go wrong, but we have made it to port every time so far, and haven't killed anyone onboard doing so.
(Last fatal was on a ship we were RASing, when a strop in an inproperly modified rig let go. The pelican went through the guy's head and that was that. When wire with 26 000 lb of tension gets away, it isn't stopping for a mere human. The report should still be around somewhere on the CF website. As is usual, human factors are to blame, with a modification of an unworkable arrangement being accepted by those who should have known better.)
James
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Bodger
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Posted - 13/07/2011 : 09:31
Thanks Stanley, on the link that i put up there are some pics and comments from ships engineers servicing / repairing the engines
"You can only make as well as you can measure"
Joseph Whitworth
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 01/08/2011 : 06:24
I've started building two marine engines in the shed. I'm expecting Robert to keep an eye on me and criticise. I started a new topic, most of the early pics are at the end of the old topic. Best way to learn about an engine is to build it and I often reflect that though small, I have to do exactly what the old boys did to make a full-size one and hit the same problems. Imagine having to deal with a hard spot in a casting the size they were working with!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Invernahaille
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Posted - 02/08/2011 : 00:19
Are you going steam or motor Stanley? Interesting project.
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 02/08/2011 : 06:01
Robert, I shall make them basically to steam but to simplify the job and recognising that nobody will ever use steam, I shall make them fit for running on compressed air. Bronze pistons, graphited asbestos packings instead of CI rings and no drains. I've seen too many good engines seized because of condensation rusting the cylinders. If some purist wants to modify them in the future they're welcome, everything else will be there. Have a look at Shed Culture. The first pics are at the end of the old topic (I started a new one because the old one was getting too big. Link to the original is in the intro panel). I'd be grateful for any input from you, marine engines are a new field for me.
Re steam and motor; I always remember what Newton said when the Science Museum at S Kensington told him they wanted the Siberia Engine erecting to run on an electric motor (Brown and Pickles had taken it out of Finsley Gate at Haggate for them) and he told them he wasn't interested in clockwork engines! Rileys from Heywood put it in and years later they decided to put a boiler on it and got into loads of trouble. Long story and I've told it elsewhere. Newton and I went down to have play with it and told them where they had gone wrong, eventually they took notice but in the interim they cracked the horizontal condenser/air pump and had to make a new one after another visit from the old farts..
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
James Powell
New Member
22 Posts
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Posted - 02/08/2011 : 21:41
I've got an unhappy railway engine at home because of cast iron cylinders and rings. It requires attention. (strange, I break them, and dad fixes them...). It sat for too long without me running it, even with a good coat of cylinder oil in the cylinders, it can be problematic. Of course, the fact that it has run probably 800+ miles under steam with me is a good thing though. (LBSC Britannia, named Robin Hood, buillt by Harry Boneham, of Toronto, Ontario)
James
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 03/08/2011 : 06:44
Jamie, take the pistons out and ditch the rings. Replace with graphited asbestos packing. Lots of the old live steam models used packing, surprising how long it can last and easily replaced.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
James Powell
New Member
22 Posts
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Posted - 03/08/2011 : 17:00
Most of ours are done that way, Stanley. But, since we didn't make this engine, it was done with rings. Best is a O ring, but care has to be taken that you don't get them too hot, otherwise they deteriorate and produce hydrofloric acid, which is really, not a nice substance to work with.
Caribou is done with soft packing, I think...I haven't had the pistons out in ~10 years. The Brit has sat for a year, and I didn't rock it over often enough. Dad had said (as had Harry), to make sure to turn engines regularly.
Just like work, where it's a once weekly thing, to prevent "flat spots, and other irregularities in bearings". One of the things which we're studying, ...I have to draw the lube oil system as fitted on HMCS Protecteur/Preserver in a couple of days. Pressure fed system, 1 steam, 1 electric pump. (Weir Vertol NV4 pumps, running 900 RPM, 420 IGPM, 2 coolers, line for the ME throttles, #19 bearing furthest from the pumps, 3-GP-357 oil, 12uM nominal/30uM absolute filters ...)
That's to bring this back to Marine Engineering !
We just came off HMCS Preserver, my class of 6 Engineering Officer of the Watch trainees. I'm busy cramming in knowledge with one hand, while holding the other one in front of the ear on the other side, to keep it from leaking out !
James
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 04/08/2011 : 06:33
You'll get there James!
"flat spots, and other irregularities in bearings" Over the years I have found many ways in which corrosion can be induced in the strangest places and even when submerged in oil. One of them was a fact I learned from a techical bloke at Brooks Motors. He told me that ideally unused electric motors should be stored on their ends. If stored flat they should be turned over occasionally. He said that vibration caused local pressure cells to form in the bearing contact surfaces and these induced a potential which could form a corrosion cell and damage the bearing surfaces. I alway spin the shafts of stored motors when I walk past them! Same thing can happen in drive trains subjected to vibration. I once had an interesting dispute with ERF about this after a big final drive failed. In the end they agreed I was right, gave us a new axle, altered their design and offered me a job. Didn't take it, too happy where I was!
Fretting corrosion is another interesting one! Then there's erosion due to cavitation in the casings of centrifugal pumps, same thing erodes propellers. (When they 'crackle' when they are running there are spot temperatures of up to 10,000C in the fluid when the cavitation cells collapse and this is what causes the potential and starts corrosion cells. It can happen even if the pump is shifting oil) . Then there's the corrosion that starts where you have oil floating on water..... Lovely subject.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
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Marine Engineers
