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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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 Posted -
09/01/2008
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12:36
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This now supercedes the earlier topic and is specifically aimed at all who are involved, Plus I do not like making spelling mistakes. First of all the current weather forcast for Skipton is: Saturday; showers, high 5, low 2. Sunday; showers, high 7, low 3. Not brilliant, but not like last night when for the first time ever I saw snow being driven horizontaly and illuminated by violent lighting!. With the lack of traffic on the cut at this time we may not have to empty locks before entering. A few tech, bits next. Summit - the highest section of a canal, ours is the highest of all twixt Greenberfield and Barrowford. Top of flight, section above flight, bottom of flight, that section below. This of course becomes in turn the top if you are going down. The section between locks in a flight are called pounds.. Locks have a head; top, and a tail; bottom. Each lock has six "paddles" two of these are ground paddles and are situated at either side in the canal banking above the head gates. These allow water into the lock at low level and are always opened first, some are opened with a lever and the rest with a rack and pinion, operated with a windlass NOT TO BE DROPPED INTO THE CUT, Two more paddles are one in each of the head gates and should not be opened until the water has risen above them, windlass operated, the remaing two are in each of the tail gates. These two need not concern us on this trip When using a windlass, after raising the paddle, engage the "Pawl" on the gear before doing anything else. Never let the weight of the paddle take charge. Safety is paramount, know what you are doing first. Sadly a dropped windless was the cause of multiple deaths at Gargrave a few years ago. Swing bridges, there are quite few between Silsden and Gargrave, some are often open. To open these, first cross the bridge and using a "necklace key" remove the chain device which secures the bridge beam. push the beam to bring the bridge parallel to the cut reducing the effort before helps to prevent the bridge from bouncing back into the path of the oncoming boat, hold the beam until the boat is clear, this caution also aplies to lock gate beams. Returning the bridge is the reversal of this operation. Someone on a bike can be very useful when attempting a "fast passage" but if there are other people about, take your bike over the bridge with you, its not funny when your iron is off down the towpath in the hands of a stranger. Someone on a bike can go ahead and ready the bridge or lock two is even better. I hope that this is of some help to whoever comes along and is unsure of events. But to all who come, Welcome and thank you. Keep safe and as warm and dry as is possible.
thomo
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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 10:58
Windows first, if water is coming in above, then it is running down the steel above the window, getting behind the top outer flange of the window and seeping through to the inside, One of the problems with fixing windows with pop rivets is that there is no future adjustment. These rivets need to be replaced with screws before the boat is painted. If a screwed window leaks, it is usually cured by tightening the screws. A temporary measure is to run sealant when dry along the top and sides of the window. TWO, water can flow uphill, this is called capiliary action, this could occur along the bottom of the window. THREE, if there is water appearing on the ceilng joints it suggests that the outer part of the roof ventilators have been fitted in the same manner as the windows. Please post just where you are and I will come and have look. Thomo.
thomo  |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 11:19
Don't worry H, if you fell in you would float. You're exactly the right shape.........
(Retreats under desk and assumes the foetal position)
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob
3044 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 13:14
Stanley: your comment would be funny were it not true. 
And while you're under that desk, clear out some of those dust bunnies...
Thomo: Thanks for info. Yes, pop riveted they all are - a situation which we need to remedy as soon as possible. We did have the foresight to allocate a small amount in the budget for this kind of remedial work.
As a hire boat, the windows were the first to go when inexperienced boaters had an altercation with a swing bridge, so it wasn't worth Silsden's while to install decent ones. The vents, too, are pop riveted. The fact that I wouldn't have a clue about the difference between pop rivetting, rock rivetting ... or folk, rap, classical and dance rivetting for that matter ... makes no difference. The watter is coming in and it must be stopped forthwith.
Please give us a call or PM me and I'll let you know where we are - it will be good to see you. |
A.J. Richer
Werebeagle
24 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 13:38
As far as pop-riveted items go, Thomo is right on - went through that kind of a nightmare with an old Landy pickup roof a few years ago (and it was a right pain in the fundamentals - ally skin pop-riveted to a steel frame).
672.4 rivets, a drill and an air-powered pop-rivet gun later - all fixed. What I ended up doing was separating the skin from the frame (analogous to you removing the window from the structure by drilling out the rivets) and re-bedded it in new sealant (silicone instead of the old mastic LR used).
From what Thomo is saying the same process could be used, with the pop-rivets replaced with (sheet-metal ?) screws.
One other thing occurs to me here - one I've run into personally to my chagrin. Pop-rivets come in different types - some will allow water ingress through the rivet center hole because they are open bottomed - there are others that are closed (but are not common at the B&Q - not expensive but more of a specialist hardware item). I will lay odds that the open-bottomed ones were used in your case, and it may well be that if you caulk the window frame and put a dab of sealant over the top of each rivet that will help.
Not sure how much help this is - but please accept it in the trying-to-help spirit it was offered in...I know jack about boats... :)
Alan
Edited by - A.J. Richer on 16/01/2008 1:40:07 PM
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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 15:29
Thanks for that. Cally. whilst doing my chef bit I have been thinking. Less of a fad than sealant, and less messy are two other possible remedies, neither of which are long term but may suffice until we can sort the job properly. ONE, a product called "Turbo Gel" it is a silicon jelly and comes in a tube, aplied along the offending areas with the finger it is quite effective,the cracks in the existing sealant will not be large. We used to use this at the yard, a similar gel is the one used for making joints in plastic plumbing of the Acorn or Hep2o type and comes in a small tub. A second possibility given that the cracks are hair cracks is the silicon treatment used for stonework, this coud be applied with a small brush, and I have about 4 litres in my garage. I will PM you shortly.
thomo |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 16:56
Young Woman! I'll have you know that there are no dust bunnies under my desk because I had a de-dog-hairing session this morning. Some evidence of a white dog remains of course but that's a matter of time......
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob
3044 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 18:07
"Young Woman!"
Ha!
Oh and I just thought - is it poP rivetting or poT rivetting? I need to know these things. |
Big Kev
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 18:24
It'll be pop........
Big Kev
It doesn't matter who you vote for, you always end up with the government. |
A.J. Richer
Werebeagle
24 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 18:52
>Oh and I just thought - is it poP rivetting or poT rivetting? I need to know these things.
It would be PoP riveting - the fastening is performed by pulling up on a centre stem in the rivet, which deforms the rivet body and then breaks off (hence the POP).
PoT riveting is only performed on drug smuggling containers used in Southern California or parts of South Florida.. 
Alan
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Ringo
Site Administrator
3793 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 18:56
PoT riveting is only performed on drug smuggling containers used in Southern California or parts of South Florida..
and certain areas of Barrowford
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Ringo
Site Administrator
3793 Posts
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Posted - 16/01/2008 : 21:07
Just had a walk on the canal to Salterforth with the dogs, it is quite a little community down there at the Marina, if any more boats turn up they will have to put hem in the field/lake next to you as there isnt much room left.
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Another
Traycle Mine Overseer
6250 Posts
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Posted - 17/01/2008 : 05:05
Obi Wan, they could always stack them one on t'other - high rise boats!
Quiet about the PoT stuff in Barrowford. Long Gertie will be after you.. Nolic
" I'm a self made man who worships his creator"  |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 17/01/2008 : 06:36
Pete, one thought about re-fitting windows, ventilators etc. I've always thought there are all sorts of problems with fastenings especially with dissimilar metals; electrolytic corrosion, movement of the joints due to expansion and contraction and natural working of the base shell if it's a large metal structure. The biggest advance we have seen in joining such things in the last twenty years is the different sealants and glues that have been made. They gave up rivetting the beams in many plane wings a long time ago, they glue them now, stronger and easier. When you think about window frames, ventilators etc. There is no structural need for metal fastenings and it makes me wonder whether there would be mileage in doing away with them and simply using one of the new high grip sealants. Neat, tidy and I reckon flexible enough to allow for movement but be totally secure.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 17/01/2008 : 12:53
I know what you mean, but what this job requires is the rivets replacing with stainless steel screws. Any adhesive would have to be on raw steel otherwise the bond would not be 100% effective, this is fine on aircraft metals as rust is never a consideration. The reason that pop rivets are used is that these boats are inevitably framed out once the boat is in the water, unlike ours where the framwork was fitted in the workshop. To keep the weather out the windows etc, are fitted first hence the rivets.
thomo |
A.J. Richer
Werebeagle
24 Posts
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Posted - 17/01/2008 : 13:48
> I know what you mean, but what this job requires is the rivets replacing with stainless steel screws.
I'm surprised to hear you mentioning using stainless steel screws with what would be aluminium window frames? One of the banes of dissimilar metals is that the stainless when combined with moisture, aluminium and regular steel invariably results in the dissolving of the ally in the sandwich - any corrosion in the regular steel accelerates this dramatically.
i't s a particular bane with road-going vehicles - I've seen Range Rover outer wing panels literally part company with the frame when someone refits them with stainless hardware. The ally under the stainless washer disappears and the top of the wing panel comes free...quite a mess.
Pardon a dumb newbie-to-boats question, but I'm not familiar with the construction of the upper works on a narrowboat - how is the superstructure built?
Alan
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FRABJOUS DAY, the homecoming.
