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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  11/01/2009  :  06:04
New Year, new topic. If you want to see the old one do a forum search for same title but 2008.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Another
Traycle Mine Overseer


6250 Posts
Posted - 20/04/2009 : 05:59
Tiz, "2 Cromwell's" ?,

Looks like  we have  now forgotton the son of Oliver, Richard, who for a short time after his father's death was Lord Protector.

"Richard Cromwell (4 October 1626 – 12 July 1712) was the third son of Oliver Cromwell and was the second Lord Protector  of England, Scotland and Ireland, for just under nine months, from 3 September 1658 until 25 May 1659." Wikipedia. 

Strange how we remember Lady Jane Grey who "ruled" for 9 days but forget a guy who ruled for 9 months!!   Nolic


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 20/04/2009 : 07:06
Comrade, perhaps because the Restoration attempted to wipe all reference to the recent unpleasantness off the map. It was a strange period in English history where the monarchy tried to erase the Civil War, only to be erased themselves at the 'Glorious Revolution' in 1688 which was, in effect, the end of British monarchy. This fact has been conveniently overlooked as well.

Wendy, I saw the footage and I have to agree that he didn't seem to have any problem hitting the woman. I see that questions are being raised about a 'culture' that allowed or even encouraged hiding faces and identity numbers. Call me an old cynic but the fact that 'riot gear' makes them all look like robocop is an act of aggression in itself. It may well be that too much emphasis on body armour and equipment in itself is police aggression and contributes to the 'culture'. Even a normal bobby on the beat has more equipment on show than a serving soldier. I can remember having a pair of ex-police trousers in which the only mofification was a truncheaon pocket and pockets big enough to hold a pair of handcuffs. That and the helmet were the only modifications to normal wear.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Tizer
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5150 Posts
Posted - 20/04/2009 : 08:58
Thanks for the extra Cromwell Nolic. My history teacher must have ignored him.

These policemen alleged to have injured protesters - were they regular policemen or part-timers brought in to help out?


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 20/04/2009 : 09:45
" It may well be that too much emphasis on body armour and equipment in itself is police aggression and contributes to the 'culture' "

I asked my son what he thought about this, and the reply I got was 
" A Policeman or Woman are just Ordinary people like you and me, with a little extra training etc. I know if I was confronted by a mob who wanted to harm me, I would want to look as aggressive as possible to scare them off. These policemen were not just patrolling the streets of Stonehaven they had been placed in an Arena by the powers that be, to protect  the powers that be." and had been told that people had travelled from all over Europe to cause them harm, and to create mayhem
 
He studies Politics & International Relations at Uni.

I do think we are seeing a different way off policing demonstrations with a more aggressive attitude when situations start to get out of hand. Up until a certain moment in the G20 policing had been done by  (ordinary ) Met Officers once the trouble broke out in came the heavy mob Tatical Support Group who are tough and need to be.
Mr Tomlinson's case does look like a Criminal Offence of Manslaughter against the Officer, it's up to the Justice system to try the case.
I have never dreamt of hitting a woman, in the case of the Police Officer that will also be investigated. What I will say is the lady in question could have left the Riot (because that is what it was becoming) and wandered away. Instead of remaining in the thick of it, even to the extent of being in the front line face to face with the Police who maybe at that moment  had started to be a little scared.
That looks like I am trying to justify the violence by the Police I am Not.

Edited by - frankwilk on 20/04/2009 12:56:26 PM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 20/04/2009 : 14:47
Have folk read about the experiences of the Austrian tourist in London recently?

 
In a letter to The Guardian last week, this 67-year old noted he and his son were visiting and took photos of buses and transport terminals.  They were seen by the police, stopped, told this was illegal, told to delete all the photos while the police watched, questioned about where they were staying and had details of their passports taken.

 
Apparently, he's not planning on visiting here again.

 
In a further letter this morning, a Canadian tourist notes being warned on the Heathrow Shuttle last month by other tourists not to take photos of transport.  Apparently, one had been arrested 2 years ago for doing so.

 
Truly, we are sleepwalking to a different country, step-by-step we are becoming a surveillance state.  And increasingly as we are seeing, the old adage that 'if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear' is untenable.  I mean, someone who appears to have done nothing wrong, in the wrong place at the wrong time, has been assaulted by the forces of law (and subsequently died)  A young women who takes a policeman to task for what she sees as aggressive behaviour, is without the blinking of an eye, hit in the face with the hand and for good measure, batoned around the legs.  A woman.....

 
Increasingly, I don't recognise this place.  I'm not concerned about hoodies, gangs, anti-social behaviour and the rest of the media-inspired hysterics.  What concerns me is this drift to a country where you are not innocent until proven guilty.  Where your details will not be destroyed if you are innocent of a crime.  Where the police can search your property, because you might decide to do something on an unknown date, and take away 'political' publications, because presumably they are the wrong politics.  Where you have everything to fear simply going about your daily life

 
Richard Broughton


Edited by - Bruff on 20/04/2009 2:49:06 PM


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 20/04/2009 : 16:19
I haven't read enough to know where the woman was on the spectrum from innocent bystander to violent protester, but in general I agree with your concerns Richard. I also agree with Frank that the policemen and women `on the ground' are under a lot of pressure and expected to make difficult decisionsunder that pressure.

The bit about photographing transport reminds me of those aircraft spotters who went on a jolly to Greece and got rounded up by the Greek police. At the time I recall saying "Well they can't expect to go to another country and have the freedom we have here". Hmmm.


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 20/04/2009 : 16:21
" Where you have everything to fear simply going about your daily life "
Sorry Richard I don't seem to be living in the same country as you. I don't go about my Daily Life in Fear, well certainly not in fear of the Police. Then again I don't join Violent Protests against anyone. I do write to my MP and Local Council often and I do get a response, maybe not always the one I want though !!!!!!

Back to the lady who got hit with an arm,and across the legs with a truncheon. Now after watching the video again she was at the Front Line of Violent Protest. The Police Officer did hit her on the back of the legs with his truncheon.
This lady was no innocent by stander,the Police Officer was possibly showing restraint he could have hit her across the head but didn't. I believe we pay the Police to control Violent Behavior, which they do on our behalf, if they didn't what next Anarchy !!!
If enough people felt stongly about any issue
No goverment could stand in the way of the People. I really believe that Statement.




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 21/04/2009 : 06:02
I share the same worries as all of you and have made my views clear in some recent articles. Frank, I respect your son's opinion but the problem for me is that he starts from a different place than I do. The bench marks have changed and what troubles me is seen as the norm by younger people. I was brought up to believe that a man should never hit a woman, how old-fashioned this sounds these days. There is no cure for this, I shall have to shuffle off this mortal coil and leave my grandchildren to deal with it. I regret our loss of freedom and innocence and feel sorry for those who have to deal with it. It is mainly self-inflicted.

 Did anyone watch Will Hutton in the first Dispatches programme of two on the collapse of the financial system. Brilliantly clear and convincing. The clips of Godron glorying in the 'New Economy' were particularly telling. Talk about hubris and nemesis! The talk is all about the end of the recession now, the next stage of the great deception is well under way. Individual profit has been squirelled away, the pensions are safe, we head towards over 3,000,000 unemployed and it will be fifty years before we finish paying for the biggest ever con-trick and it was all perfectly legal. It must have been because no retribution has been dealt out to those who committed the acts and profited by them. See above, the bench marks have been changed.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 21/04/2009 : 12:55
The other end of the spectrum, when a Police Car passed us this morning, with siren wailing.  My 2 1/2 year old Grandaughter said                " Grandad are they going to Help Someone "
Yes sweetheart was my reply.

Stanley on my son's opinion I was only repeating it, not fully agreeing with it LOL



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 22/04/2009 : 07:03
Interesting that the IPCC is homing in on identification numbers and the culture behind removing them. Why don't they just publish the instructions and let us see for ourselves? Too much secrecy.

Jaqui Smith seems to be accident prone. Did you see her walking out of number ten with the agenda on show? Wonderful lens on these cameras these days.....

As for Godron and his U turn on MP's expenses. Touch of panic here exacerbated by sheer political ineptitude. I think he is making a big mistake in paying MPs by the day. This hasn't been thought through and is going to cause even more trouble. You can't help wondering whether this is all driven by the fact that the expense figures to be published in July are so horrendous that there is going to be a massive reaction.

The budget...  All I can suggest is that a good thing would be to remove VAT from house repairs on a derelict house to get it back into the housing stock. This would stimulate development of these properties, give employment and activity in the construction industry and make more houses available. It was a big problem when I did Ellenroad 25 years ago and has never been addressed. New construction is VAT free but repairs are charged full rate.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 22/04/2009 : 07:34
VAT I think must be one of the largest methods of raising revenue ever thought of !!.  Why should you pay this extra, on top of the actual price of the product or service. I suppose the argument would be we need to raise the money some how and this hits everyone Rich or Poor Young and Old.
They never seem to look at  what they the Goverment  spend the revenue on.
The recession is over I heard some one comment the other day, how has it affected you ???
The only thing I have seen is Wollies closing down, because they never saw other people taking the market they were in, and of course the car Industry making more cars than they could sell.

Edited by - frankwilk on 22/04/2009 07:35:43 AM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 22/04/2009 : 08:41
That's the message they want to convey Frank, it's all over, we have bottomed out. It all depends how you measure these things. Think of the number of kids leaving education and not getting into work. We all know what happened to Thatcher's children, once they lost the habit of getting up and getting out to work, it was almost impossible to get them going. Think of the taxes that will have to be levied, add the effects of PFI and on top of that allow for further economic shocks in food and energy supply. Not a good prospect...

Did you notice that the war on terror has shot itself in the foot yet again? Shades of Forest Gate and tanks at Heathrow. News slipped out this morning that no evidence has been found following the mass raids triggered by Quick and his naked memo. If no evidence has been found why are they deporting nine of the students? Is this just a face-saver? What sort of message does this send to the Muslim community? How long can this type of mass overt action take place before someone comes to their senses and goes back to what we used to do before, work in the background and keep quiet about what the security services were doing. The politicians are to blame, they need the lever of instilling spurious fear in the public to cover up their ineptitude, squandermania and almost complete lack of joined up policy and pribciples in the upper echelons. It's the oldest trick in the book and about time the backbenchers got their act together and spiked it.

I know I bang on about this but I can remember when we had real war on terror, real bombs and an actual emergency. We also had a public solidly behind the government and even under wartime conditions, more freedom than we have today. 'On grounds of national security' is as devalued as 'commercially sensitive' and 'can't comment on individual cases'. Remember Godron promising us openess and transparency? The only transparency we have is the fact that we can see right through their machinations to retain power. Yes. I'm angry!!

Telling line in Secret Lives last night on R4. Blair saying that Leo had told him all he achieved was two failed wars and a recession. What a legacy.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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5150 Posts
Posted - 22/04/2009 : 09:24
"Wonderful lens on these cameras these days....."
With 12+ megapixel cameras you don't even need a long lens. Take a normal picture then zoom in on screen and the image has such high resolution that you can read text photgraphed at a distance. Politicians and the police don't seem to know this, of course.

News from Gloucesteshire County Council. They are going to play continuous background "pop music" in their public libraries because, they say, "people like it". What ever happened to silence?

On Radio 4 the other day, a man who had been working in one of the London investment banks some years ago said that everyone who worked in the City institutions at the time knew that "it couldn't last". The implication seems to be that they drove us into the credit crunch while making more and more money out of it themselves and knowing just what was going to happen.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 22/04/2009 : 13:32
I think the same bloke was on Will Hutton's programme. Grab the money and run lads!

I got a bit of a shock today. Like many of us, I use my credit cards as a convenience, not a way of borrowing money. I noted that on a balance of £20 Barclaycard had charged me £1 interest. On my HSBC card a balance of £54 at the same interest rate attracted a charge of 29p. I rang Barclaycard and for the first time (I must be a bit slow) realised that they have a minimum interest charge. In other words, if you had only 1p on the card you would be paying 1200% per annum interest! I have stopped the card by writing to them and asking for a closing balance. If they don't do it, and I have heard they do not reply to such requests, I shall send them a registered latter telling them that I refuse to be responsible for any charges on the account. I pointed out that I was a customer before many of them were born. I doubt if that fact will register!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 22/04/2009 : 14:30
Stanley, if you have a problem with Barclaycard (or with any other money issue of this type) buy a copy of the Saturday edition of The Times and have a look at "Troubleshooter" in the Money section. Then write an email to Rebecca who writes Troubleshooter  (can't recall her surname at the moment) and explain the problem. She is doing a great job of shaming the big finance and energy businesses for screwing their customers.

A letter in the same paper last weekend from a Cambridge computer scientist said that `Chip and Pin' is very easy to break into. We've all heard of shoulder-surfing (watching over your shoulder to get your number when you pay for goods) but now the fraudsters can simply tap into the machines to log the numbers. They also clone cards and can create cards that will work with any chip and pin number. But the banks insist it is foolproof and if you claim to have false debits on your card they say you *must* have given away your number.They are desperately using chip and pin to put the blame onto customers. The FSA is foolishly backing them in this.


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