Visit the historic Lancashire Textile Project with over 500 photos and 190 taped interviews|2|0
Go to Page
  First Page  Previous Page    3  4  5  [6]  7  8   Next Page  Last Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  28/04/2011  :  07:37
Political comment is a high risk activity on the site these days so I thought I'd try again to give those who are interested in politics a safe haven!


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
Replies
Author
Go to Page
  First Page  Previous Page    3  4  5  [6]  7  8   Next Page  Last Page
 
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 11:04


quote:
Bruff wrote:
What would the first referendum be on catty?  Or would we need a referendum to decide this 'first' one?  Who decides the questions on this referendum, to inform the first referendum? 

 
Essentially, how would it work?  Perhaps you could outline it with respect to 'the 300' passing a Budget.  And for something more simple, I don't know, say a Water Quality Bill, or a Statutory Instrument for control of an emergent carcinogen.

 
Would these 300 folk be paid?  Get expenses?  How much?  Why would they be less sleazy?  I would have thought 300 folk picked at random would contain a number of wrong 'uns, albeit not many.  Am I wrong?  Why?

 
Richard Broughton


 The best thing I can do is refer you to the following :-

http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/accord/demreal.htm

In essence there would need to be enough people  "in power", either by election or by "civil uprising" to operate as a government that would set up the scheme, hand it over and then retire from the scene, 


Every silver lining has a cloud.


Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2300 Posts
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 11:37
I have just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading the utter gargabe that Catty's link represents.

I will cite a single discrepancy in the master plan for the running of the country which dooms it to failure.

The electoral register as it stands is not the fount of all knowledge about each individual who has registered. The scheme proposes to use the electoral role to randomly select by computer a cross section of people with all manner of expertise so that they can have proper informed debate and put forward issues to the rank and file for voting on.

It goes without saying that the scheme would require a more comprehensive record of the qualifications of each individual citizen in order to ensure that you had the required representatives for any given issue. This would involve going way past what has already been proposed and rejected in the attempt to establish a National Identity Card with regard to the personal information held on people by computer. You would literaly have to file a comprehensive CV on everyone in the country and have the ability to scan this information to ensure that you conscripted the right people for the job. This will never happen and anyway it would also automatically disenfranchise the vast majority of the population who no longer have any particular skill, trade ir expertise.

Not going to say anymore, I have already wasted 30 minutes of my life.


Ian Go to Top of Page
Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 11:55
That's interesting.

 
So no one under 60 would be allowed to be 'in power' as they are deemed not of sufficient 'maturity'.  That's a good start to a new form of democracy......

 
Mind you, it's nothing new.  There have been many instances in history where certain types are deemed not worthy of a say in matters.  Interestingly, some of these 'administrations' tend to be very fond of referendums as they can use the explicit populism of referendums as a disguise for repressive policies, such as for example, the proscribing of the under-60s from decision-making processes.....

 
Why limit it to the under-60s?  What about the feeble-minded?  What about the 'parasites' (the report's words) who were a part of the existing system as elected representatives.  Would they be OK with the appropriate re-education?  At say a re-education camp?

 
Just to get to the heart of the argument:

 
''The administration of justice has for long only required twelve people to ensure an unbiased conclusion, with a larger number of people the unbiased condition must be even more assured.''

 
Really?  I don't think the underlined bit follows at all and seems like a logical fallacy to me.  Bit like the document, which where it isn't barking mad, is in the sub-text rather unsavoury and frankly dangerous (and I'm being polite there).  

 
Richard Broughton


Edited by - Bruff on 20/05/2011 12:00:26 PM


Go to Top of Page
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 14:11
As I read and understand it, those people selected at random from the electoral register would not be "in power" they would merely be a "think tank", for a fixed period, where they would put forward  proposals to be subjected to a referendum by the ordinary citizens, who would be the ones really "in power"

I would suggest that the under 60s embargo is there not to sort out the "feeble minded" but rather to ensure that the anyone approaching the stage in life where retirement is imminent and the body is becoming a little more fragile, is not obliged to travel the length of the country to attent the parlezment.

I am reminded of the old Sufi teaching story about a clothes line.

A neighbour of the teacher went along to see him and asked if he could borrow his clothes line. The teacher said he was sorry but he was drying some flour on it. The would be borrower express surprise and a little touch of disbelief  and asked,"It must be terribly difficult for some one to dry flour on a washing line?." To which the teacher said," No it is very easy, if you do not wish to lend out your washing line".


Every silver lining has a cloud.


Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2300 Posts
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 14:24
Call it what you will Catty, your elected at random "Think Tank" would have to have the knowledge to formulate a question for the electorate to ponder (those truly in power by your count).

Now I would bet a pound to a penny that if you selected at random say 300 or even 500 individuals at random from the register and then gave them the problem of the safest way to decommission a nuclear power station they would not know where to start, let alone know how to put forward the various arguments to the rank and file in language that they could all understand.

It's all absolute nonsense and you know it, stirring up rubbish like this will wear out your wooden spoon ahead of it's time.


Ian Go to Top of Page
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 20/05/2011 : 16:11


quote:
panbiker wrote:
...the problem of the safest way to decommission a nuclear power station they would not know where to start, let alone know how to put forward the various arguments to the rank and file ..

Yes of course. All our current politicians are experts in such things.Every one of them comes with a diploma in Universal Knoiwledge.. Some of them even know how to add up........and get a sum larger that the total of its  parts.

I liked that line of Rob Wiltons in "the Day War Broke Out". He said "Well ....I've got a tongue in my head, a'ven't I ?"


Every silver lining has a cloud.


Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 21/05/2011 : 06:12
" that the present system is the best that can be achieved" Catty, read it again, I never said that, don't put words in my mouth please.

I didn't bother to waste time on Angelfire, The opinion of Richard and Ian will do me because I trust them. Bit like an election really, you choose the candidates you trust and give them your support. Catty loses his deposit. Could there be an analogy in there somewhere? Or even an example?

Like most other people I quite enjoy a bit of hubris and the unfolding story of Chris Hune and the penalty points has all the essential elements of a Greek tragedy. Overweening ambition, a woman scorned and a denoument. Say what you like about our privacy laws, our culture is alive and well and I look forward to the rest of the story, whichever way it goes! Fascinating....


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 21/05/2011 : 10:07
" I didn't bother to waste time on Angelfire, The opinion of Richard and Ian will do me because I trust them. Bit like an election really, you choose the candidates you trust and give them your support. Catty loses his deposit. Could there be an analogy in there somewhere? Or even an example?"

There may be an analogy lurking somewhere in there, if you can find it, but I fail to see any logical reasoning. It seems like a statement which says "Don't  confuse me with information my mind is already made up."


Every silver lining has a cloud.


Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 22/05/2011 : 05:45
No, it's simply that I have a very efficient crap detector.

My crap detector whined loudly when Elliot Morley came on the radar and it would seem the judges agreed with me. It whined again about Chris Hune and I see he now says he can't remember where he was at the time. Perhaps he will get his memory jogged, according to what look like well-founded reports he was in Essex having just arrived by air. His wife was speaking at a conference.  I see there is also some question about election expenses. Does anyone share my impression that someone is out to get him? HIGNFY was very entertaining on the matter, they evidently feel fairly safe in satirising the matter.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 22/05/2011 : 09:32


quote:
Stanley wrote:
No, it's simply that I have a very efficient crap detector.


Then I suggest you "get a man in" to look at it. I hope it is still covered by warranty.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 23/05/2011 : 05:49
I listened to Barack Obama yesterday. A lot of people have tried to write him off but  I was struck by how open and assured he sounds. He was talking sense as well. Thinking back he is the most plausible US President I can remember. I note that the Republicans are having difficulty finding a candidate. In US terms they are running out of time. Did you see the Mad Woman from Alaska making her play the other day?


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
tripps
Senior Member


1404 Posts
Posted - 24/05/2011 : 08:49
I note that the BBC news described last night's bombing of Tripoli by the RAF et al, as " being hit by a series of explosions" ,  


Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 25/05/2011 : 06:16
Mission creep is alive and well. I see we are contemplating joining the US in sending in Apache helicopters. Can we remember 'Puff the Magic Dragon' in Vietnam?


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 08:26
John Major writes an article praising David Cameron for ring-fencing overseas aid. In general and in normal times, I am all in favour of aid. I slao agree that it's a good thing not to cut it in stringent econeomic times. However, I don't agree with 'ring-fencing' and neither will the Treasury. The thing the treasury avoids at all costs is homologated taxes, for instance a 'Road Fund Tax' the proceeds of which are devoted entirely to road maintenance. Yet the one powder they will not allow local government and I suspect all government departments is 'virement', the authority to move money from one budget heading to another. So what Cameron is doing is embedding virement in the overseas budget while it is denied to almost everyone else apart from the Treasury.

Speaking from experience at Ellenroad, one of the most effective powers you can have if you're managing a budget is virement. I had it and we survived and succeeded, without it I would have been sunk. It may be time to rethink the freedom that is given to local councils. They have been handed responsibility but with no power. In my experience this can never work.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
tripps
Senior Member


1404 Posts
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 10:21
Wow - there's another couple of words to be added to the repertoire. Homologated, and Virement.  I've been getting by with just hypothecated until now.


Go to Top of Page
Topic is 51 Pages Long:
Go to Page
  First Page  Previous Page    3  4  5  [6]  7  8   Next Page  Last Page
 


Set us as your default homepage Bookmark us Privacy   Copyright 2004-2011 www.oneguyfrombarlick.co.uk All Rights Reserved. Design by: Frost SkyPortal.net Go To Top Of Page

Page load time - 0.594