Click here to register on OneGuyFromBarlick|2|1
Go to Page
  First Page  Previous Page    32  33  34  [35]  36  37   Next Page  Last Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  11/01/2009  :  06:04
New Year, new topic. If you want to see the old one do a forum search for same title but 2008.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
Replies
Author
Go to Page
  First Page  Previous Page    32  33  34  [35]  36  37   Next Page  Last Page
 
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 15:39
The suspicion of heavy handed policing has been around for a while. The spurious 'war on terror' is one of the things to be blamed. Best not to jump to conclusions but the reaction in the corridors of poaer suggets they realise that something could be very badly wrong here. We shall have to wait for the enquiry. One thing that has been mentioned is that if there is a criminal enquiry it should be done by a force not implicated in the original incident. It surprises me that this isn't standard practice.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 17:10
Agreed Stanley.....No conclusions jumped to. However......

It's a bit of a worry that "the Met" spokesman,as soon as  something like this happens , finds it necessary to issues statements to the press like .......

"police had no contact with Mr Tomlinson".....and the aforementioned "pelting with bottle " rubbish.

One person who witnessed (the fall) was interviewed on R5 this afternoon , and was clearly upset .

She had not seen the push, but saw the effect and how hard Mr Tomlinson banged his head.

There has also been a hint that the identity of the officer involved was not known ....surely that cannot be correct.

As you say, we shall have to wait and see .

 

 

 

 


BRADDERS BLUESINGER Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 07:24
PR spokespeople with weasel words which if you examine them always leave a way out if challenged. It's a fine art nowadays. They reckon he has come forward but I like what Ken Livingstone said. Anyone who doesn't come forward should be suspended immediately. He also commented on the potential for macho culture among elite cadres inside the police. He was giving some fairly explicit coded messages in that interview and they are worth thinking about. He saw it from the inside and is now free to be more explicit but he still has responsibilities. I reckon he was being more forthcoming than it looked.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 08:37
" Potential for macho culture among elite cadres inside the police".
I would agree with that, but not condemn it. It exsists in all the armed forces Marines, Paratroopers, SAS  SBS just to name a few. It is difficult when confronted by a mob to show restraint I do think our police do mobs very well, but we do need more armour rather than people. It's difficult to cause trouble when your cold and soaking wet



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 08:59
I don't agree Frank. We did pretty well in my army days without the macho culture. Efficient and effective doesn't need a lot of pumped up adrenaline junkies. You can see it in everything from army training to video games and I wouldn't mind betting that it is the same as it always was, good lads getting on with the job they were trained for without  any bravado or show. I worked with some SBS lads at one time and what struck me was that they had the same attitudes as us but more training. Nice lads, definitely effective and not macho at all.

 Just been announced that Bob Quick has resigned. Probably the right thing. Ken Livingstone made an interesting point that they had acted a lot quicker on a senior officer with a good record than they seem to be doing with the attack on Mr Tomlinson. I saw a report of 100 police beseiging Homebase in Clitheroe......


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 09:50
I agree with you Frank, did you get the lectures on "Aid to civil power" in your training. It is easy and comfortable to condemn if you have never faced a howling mob or dealt with a real bomb threat, at the end of the day, if there hadnt been a mob the poor bloke may still be alive.


thomo Go to Top of Page
gus
Regular Member


704 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 15:18
The real problem  with any protest is that they invariably get hijacked by the rent-a-mob, great unwashed, anarchists and so forth, the media immediatlely focus on this bunch of low lifes whos only aim in life is to bring about the downfall of the very society that they are only too happy to take their weekly giro from.
The very people who have to bear the brunt of these spitting, screaming vandal seeking scum, are the police, who under the most severest of pressure, are expected to stand like choir boys, in front of these baying low lifes, then the whole point of the protest has been reduced to the level of near, nay actual riot, which has again hijacked the democratic right to demonstrate. I do not for one second, condone the police actions against Mr. Tomlinson, in fact it was no better than some of the mob they were trying to police, but, what i can understand, is the pressure the police were put under on the day, and on that point i agree with Frank, get the water cannon on thos who start to cause damage and violence, a liquid most of whom would only use for drinking.......      


Gus

http://www.flickr.com/photos/angusbrennan/
Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 09/04/2009 : 16:11
I did note in the later videos that some of those on the front rank baiting the police were carrying cans.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 07:26
I listened to Blair justifying deaths on the grounds of fighting the 'war on terror' this morning even though I don't think he used the phrase. The big mistake that Bush made was to elevate the real security threat to America to global war on the grounds that the roots of the problem were external to America. The same could have been said of the IRA campaign, they received help and training from many places. The difference was that we used the old and trusted security apparatus plus politics and negotiation and in the end solved the problem without waging war. The reason why this canard has retreated and you don't hear the phrase used nowadays is that it has been recognised that the concept was wrong. Problem is that as part of this 'war' changes were made to personal liberty and it is these changes which trigger opposition, not the actions of the police, they have to deal with the situation the government has placed them in. If you look back at the long course of democratisation in thei country protest has always been and still is, a legitimate route to pressurising the powers that be. Without it we would not have got the privileges we enjoy today and any curtailment of this right to protest is a denial of liberty. Read your history!


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 08:47
Stanley I fully support the Right to Protest in fact I would march in Support of that right. I don't support the right to violence and that is what I was trying to put across when I said the Police need to be tough when confronted by a violent element. If you have trained hard and have built a strong bond with your fellow officers, I can see how things can quickly get out of hand. When you see a comrade felled by a bottle or stone you reaction is one of anger and then the retalliation begins.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 10:06
Our police keeping anger and retaliation under control is what separates us from the Zimbabwes of the world. Our police do well but, like with everything else, statistics upsets best intentions and there will always be the occasional failing, especially under these sort of circumstances. Very unfortunate for those affected but a fact of life. We live in a real world.

I think demostrating on the street has had its day and the people who want to get their views across would now do better to get on their computers and mobile phones to spread the word, get themselves on TV and radio - it's easy enough to do. But marching down a street or waving banners in front of a building are activities too easy to hijack and they leave themselves open to the bad elemnets or even terrorists. There are better ways in the 21st century.


Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 10:35
I agree with both of you but still think there is a point where a spontaneous mass demonstration of disapproval is the best way. Remember the WI slow hand clapping Blair in June 2000? I happen to think that that did more to influence him than any number of petitions and letters particularly when you consider the source. Wonderful demonstration of how to get a politician's attention.

My problem is that I've read my history. The imposition of the Poll Tax in the 14th century led to the Peasant's Revolt which was soon crushed but had its effect. Fast Forward tothe Poll Tax riots in 1990. Condemned by Margaret Thatcher as anarchy and crushed but they too had their effect. Look at the Corn Laws, Chartism and the Miner's Strike. The two former had their effect, the latter was a lost cause from the start because of the way it was handled by Scargill but they too had a point and it was their protest against attacks on Trade Unionism that led to the big rethink inside the movement and the recognition that trade unionism had a part to play in modern governance. The unions are more influential now than they were in the 80s and 90s. In all these cases the government of the time had gone too far and needed reminding that the people have their place in democracy. The ultimate sanction is of course the vote as we have seen recently in the US.

I really do believe that our masters have lost the plot. They are faced with economic melt-down that they don't or won't understand. They pursue foreign wars that are doomed to failure and in the process create an even bigger problem, a schism between the West and Islam. Meanwhile they totally ignore the growing evidence that we need to devote all our resources to one thing, financing the technology needed to combat what is happening to our planet. Compared with that inevitability all the other problems are as nothing. We have the tools to make a difference and what do we do? Argue about planning permissions, allocate resources to atomic weapons and military power and treat the necessary fight against global warming as a secondary matter. We all know that it in a century the world will have changed completely unless we do something now. Action this day. And incidentally, these matters were at the root of the G20 protests. People know that we are being sold down the river and I'm afraid that in terms of protest on the streets you ain't seen nothing yet!


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 11:07
Stanley, did you watch the Al Gore film `An Inconvenient Truth' on Channel 4 the other night? I think it was claimed to be the first showing on terrestrial TV. I read the book some time ago but it's the first time I've seen the film. Powerful stuff. A pity, though, that some interesting bits in the book are not in the film. For instance, he mentions in the film how the US nuclear subs had been measuring the thickness of the Arctic ice for decades but the data were kept `top secret' even though they showed the dramatic thinning of the ice cap. Gore went on one of the subs to the Arctic to see things for himself.

What isn't in the film is that on his return he asked the top US admiral to go with him on a trip there. They went to Greenland and the Arctic and Gore showed him all the evidence for the loss of glaciers and melting ice. On their flight back the admiral admitted he was shocked and he immediately made the data public on his return.

When viewing the Gore film now it's sobering to think it was made years ago and things have only got worse. To many vested interests in doing nothing.


Go to Top of Page
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 12:38
We do indeed live in a real World Tizer and History cannot be changed. History is not a stick to beat ourselves with, it is more like a training manual that is not always accurate. Like most religious books it can be modified to suit the authors thinking and is therefore not always fact. I see that another mass protest is scheduled for the smoke for the weekend, what really brasses me off is babies being dragged along to these events. Imagine the howls of derision if one of these came to grief.


thomo Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 14:58
"Howls of DERISION" ?

Surely you don't mean that........what word were you searching for?


BRADDERS BLUESINGER Go to Top of Page
Topic is 84 Pages Long:
Go to Page
  First Page  Previous Page    32  33  34  [35]  36  37   Next Page  Last Page
 


Set us as your default homepage Bookmark us Privacy   Copyright 2004-2011 www.oneguyfrombarlick.co.uk All Rights Reserved. Design by: Frost SkyPortal.net Go To Top Of Page

Page load time - 0.672