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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 13:13
Tizer - we have 72 MEPs, same as France and Italy, and second largest number after Germany who have 99.  That 72 is about 10% of the total.

 
It's not so much the number you have, it's the groupings and alliances you make with folk who share your views.  The Parliament is made up of 'blocks'.

Richard Broughton



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catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 20:25


quote:
Bruff wrote:
Tizer - we have 72 MEPs, same as France and Italy, and second largest number after Germany who have 99.  That 72 is about 10% of the total.

 
It's not so much the number you have, it's the groupings and alliances you make with folk who share your views.  The Parliament is made up of 'blocks'.

Richard Broughton

I like that.

Add in an o and anoither l and do a small shuffle , or substitute  the vowel with a, or just be more precise as to material from which the blocks are made ... it all seems somehow approriate.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 21:25
Tizer - we have 72 MEPs, same as France and Italy, and second largest number after Germany who have 99.  That 72 is about 10% of the total

You pay the money that we do  and you have a 10% share of the Vote mmmmm Sounds like real value for money !!!!




Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2011 : 04:08
Wendy, Daughter Susan told me about the ad when she visited the other day.

 http://www.milkmatters.co.uk/cats/

Two court judgements caught my ear. The ruling in S Africa that miners can sue mine-owners for lung damage anrd the appeal court hearing here in UK that expecting a union to get their mailing list exactly right is unreasonable and that in future ballots can only be struck out for gross errors. It always struck me as ridiculous because the list could change in the time it took to send a ballot out!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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wendyf
Senior Member


1439 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2011 : 07:40
Thanks for the link Stanley, it's a very good ad.


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 05/03/2011 : 12:30
I heard Lord Baker on radio defending and promoting his technical schools against someone who thought it was wrong to commit youngsters to a `narrow education'. They sounded good to me. What a coincidence that I had just been looking at an old photo of the Duke of Edinburgh in the 1950s at a big ceremony to open Brtain's first technical college at Hatfield! When I did my A levels it was part time at Blackburn Tech College, then I started my degree course at Liverpool Regional College of Technology where I was an odd one out because most of the students were in things like marine engineering. By the time I left it was Liverpool Polytechnic, now it's a university named after the Littlewoods millionaire.

And this is what happened to Hatfield College (from this web page)....
"The University originated as Hatfield Technical College in 1952 when the land was given for the foundation of an educational establishment by Sir Geoffrey De Havilland. The institution was awarded university status in 1992 following the Further and Higher Education Act and the University of Hertfordshire celebrated it's 50th anniversary in 2002. The university itself is divided into two main campuses in Hatfield with a third, the School of Law, being located in the nearby town of St Albans. Hertfordshire University provides higher education to 23,000 students with 20,000 of those being undergraduates. There are over 500 subjects taught at the university which are divided into 20 schools of study."

Over 500 subjects...is that where it all went wrong?

Edited by - Tizer on 05/03/2011 16:34:12


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 06:00
The secondary schools were founded in 1944 when Rab Butler's Edication act defined the split between primary and secondary education at 11 years old. In 1947 when I reached 11 I had the chance to take Scholarship Examinations for the three nearest grammar schools and I can remember how hard they were. I was lucky and scraped into Stockport Grammar by the skin of my teeth. The secondary schools were seen as institutions which turned out pupils at school-leaving age, 15 years, with enough literacy and numeracy to be useful workers. They gradually improved the curriculum and some developed into teaching more technical subjects and eventually spawned the technical colleges.

There's no doubt that all this was an improvement but the secondary schools were always seen by the establishment as second-class, devoted to producing factory fodder. There was a middle way, the high schools, sort of half way between the secondaries and the grammars, in Stockport it was Mile End, a good school but not as well-regarded as the Grammar. The term 'vocational training' became shorthand for second-rate. A great pity.

In those days free entry to university was by scholarship and 'exhibitions' whatever those were.  Anyone else who could afford did an interview and a short exam and they were in. Truth to tell many of these places were obtained on the Old Boy Network and personal recommendation.

I tend to think that you are right Tiz. I often thought that many of the strange degree courses would have been better served in high class Technical Colleges. We lost something when the academic focus became blurred in the fight to win the numbers game. We seem to be moving the other way now as  courses are cut to save money and universities try to prove that they are better and more exclusive so that they can command the maximum fees. Problem is that they have to attract the students as well so the simple fact of achieveing a university place is no longer the goal, it's to get a University course in what you fancy. So we see core disciplines in essential subjects being dropped to make room for what I am afraid I see as lightweight subjects. Of course I may simply be hopelessly out of touch but my feelings are reinforced by old mentors who I respect who see what they think is a deterioration in standards.

Leaving aside Cameron's sabre-rattling and him being educated into a realisation that in order to put in a no-fly zone you first have to attack a country to knock out the AA defences, the situation in Libya seems to be developing in favour of the rebels, or 'terrorists' as Gadafi calls them. I find it extraordinary that people like John Simpson are actually embedded with the rebels. (Did you hear the live interview the other day when he was asked what the situation was in Benghazi and he said you'll have to ask someone else. I'm not there!)  One disturbing report on World Service this morning is that some Brithish 'special forces' soldiers have been captured by the rebels. They were escorting a diplomat on a mission to contact the rebels. The rebels were enraged because they said that the worst thing for their cause was to be seen to be accepting overtures from foreign powers. If this is a good report, who was the bright spark who authorised it?


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 08:09
Reports of eight SAS soldiers captured are hardening up. UK government 'refuses to comment'. Could be embarrassing...... Nobody is denying the story.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 08:26
Stanley are you referring to "secondary moderns" when you talk about secondary school. I think the idea of secondary education, ie education which followed on from primary, had been around before 1944.

Edited by - belle on 06/03/2011 08:27:12 AM


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 11:16
I was one of those who went to the in-between school which was called a `technical and grammar school' at the time. It worked well by cutting out some of the more esoteric stuff and having less woodwork etc, but teaching more science. My father went to a secondary modern and got a very good education that set him up for technical work. He got his first job in the office at Kirk's shuttle mill in Blackburn in the 1930s and did part-time study for draughtsmanship and the like at the old tech college. Unfortunately his father died and he had to leave and find better paid work in a shop. In 1938 he joined he RAF which recognised his technical skills and trained his as an armourer and he later trained other armourers in UK and overseas on the wartime Enterprise Scheme. On leaving the RAF in 1945 he joined Phillips and was with them until retirement. The secondary modern was just right for him and would be for many youngsters today.


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catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 11:31
Education is very much like building. The first thing that is required is a good substantial foundation onto which one can erect a good substantial structure. To do this people with the necessary knowledge and experience are needed to build this foundation. It is not know at this stage what the eventual building will be, because this is dependant on the success or failure of the foundation builders.

The secondary stage in construction again depends for its success on not only the secodary builders but also the primary builder and whether they have left enough suitable "grafting on" and reinforcement points, rather than just leaving a smooth finish.

The secondary stage again must provide a good sound support for the eventuality of a third story being added and so similar considerations to the ones needed for the secondary build  must be applied. The buiders must build into the construction the necessary connections for this tertiary level.

Our present charade, maquerading as education, is more intent on leaving a neat finish after each level and sees each level as an end in itself. The result is that as each poor soul leaves one level  for the next it is totaly unprepared, and is forced to take the soft options that have had to be put in in order to keep up the smoke screen that hides the debasement of our education system.

We thus finish up with  many builders who at not really up to the job of building what is needed and a population awash with Ph.D,s is such things as Raffia Work, Fingernail Painting, Esther Ransen, Twentieth Certury Trends in Nose Picking, et al.

But then again...what do I know.

 


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 11:44
That's a useful analogy Catgate. We still see surprising levels of illiteracy and innumeracy. I think these levels are worse than we are told because there are now many people who are probably not officially illiterate and innumerate yet cannot understand simple instructions and cannot put together a meaningful sentence. Somewhere in the last couple of days I saw concerns about people not being able to understand the warnings on pharmaceutical product labels. They are about as simply and clearly written as possible but still misunderstood by many folk.


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 12:00
I also went to a secondary modern, at which there were three grades, A,B and C. In 1951 there were so many arriving who were A grade that a second A stream had to be set up, Alpha. this was a temporary arrangement with some re-sitting exams and moving on to either Ermysteads Grammar or Keighley Tech. There where at that time about 20 staff, a quick look at the car park now suggests three times this Number. The staff were good and the discipline also, success however is not just dependant upon the type of school or the staff, but on the willingness and ability of the pupils to absorb what is taught. I get the impression that many of todays kids want the kind of jobs that do not involve physical effort or the risk of dirty hands. But life isnt like that, someone has to produce the stuff upon which society depends, most of which requires a great deal of technical skills far in advance of those required to sit at a desk, and they also need a good deal of inteligence. Pupils who study for this kind of future should be encouraged and aided to the highest degree. On a final note, one year after leaving school I was back there in the evenings doing a technical entrants course and by that time there was an E grade in day school!! was this the fault of the staff or the pupils? I suspect the latter!!


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catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 14:01


quote:
Tizer wrote:
That's a useful analogy Catgate. We still see surprising levels of illiteracy and innumeracy. I think these levels are worse than we are told because there are now many people who are probably not officially illiterate and innumerate yet cannot understand simple instructions and cannot put together a meaningful sentence. Somewhere in the last couple of days I saw concerns about people not being able to understand the warnings on pharmaceutical product labels. They are about as simply and clearly written as possible but still misunderstood by many folk.

What I find disconcerting is that our present "system" is counter productive in as much as it does not accept the obvious fact that there is no way everyone can be educated to an "equal" level  because of  a naturally occuring unequal  learning ability, caused by  a variety of reasons. So the lower common denominator comes into play, and whilst many, who have been lucky enough to learn how to learn, will progress, despite the system, many more will not. However the system is so flawed that it is possible to release some of these unfortunates into the classrooms to perpetuate this flawed system, due to the nature of the influences prevailing at present in our education training system.

The system is unfit for purpose (as they say) and has become a political tool rather than a means of turning out educated adults.

The real reason for examinations at the end of primary and secondary  levels was to fully  and properly utilise the number of places available on the next level up. It would be folly to sent to a grammar school a child who could not absorb what was presented to it, As a result the "pass" mark was a moveable feast,  and varied each year, and was in reality a percentage figure based on available seats and bums seeking them.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 07/03/2011 : 05:32
Belle, yes. Catty, a good brief explanation and I agree with you. Of course my experience of education is history now and the main thing I remember is that even though we got a good basic education nobody was really thinking in terms of excellence and advancement until i got into the grammar school.

The cocked-up diplomatic mission is over and the group is on its way back to Malta. Much furious back-pedalling and  'explanations' this morning.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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