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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  11/01/2009  :  06:04
New Year, new topic. If you want to see the old one do a forum search for same title but 2008.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 22/03/2011 : 05:09
Window-cleaning?

Listening to the latest reports on R4 about Libya. First mention of 'mission creep'. Conflicting reports as to whether Gadafi is a legitimate target. Gung ho speeches in H of P about our brave armed forces. There is a nasty jingoistic feeling about all this. I have just heard one MP who was brave enough to stand up and ask for the exact reasons why we are acting like this and what the exit strategy is. Good and pertinent questions. Then there is the cost... What happened to armed services cuts? Every time a cruise missile is fired it's £500,000 up the spout just for the hardware.  Cameron knows that his biggest danger is that he's beginning to look like a modern version of Falklands Maggie or Blair MkII. I reckon they have a tiger by the tail, the biggest problem is letting go.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 22/03/2011 : 06:50
Good job quite a few nations have the Tiger by the tail then !!! I think you are listening  to the media to much. We all faced the end of the World through Nuclear fall out from Japan less than a week ago, according to the Press. The exit strategy is we just Stop Flying over Libya that is it. You are reading far to much into the situation, and the clowns in the H of C don't know what they are talking about, they are just talking. Denis Skinner hasn't done a days work in his lifetime, he just lounges on a bench in the H of C.  At the end of the day if our Forces prevented a mass killing of civilians they did what was intended, anything else surrounding this is media spin looking for a story.
 



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 22/03/2011 : 10:27
Sometimes the short sightedness of Govt policy staggers me beyond belief, we now have approx a million young people who cannot find a job, add to them all the university leavers who have enormous debt and can't find a job, and you have a recipe for civil unrest, as is already evident in many other countries. During a time of financial hardship, when it actually helps the govt unemployment figures if students go on to further education, there should be a reduction in fees not an increase!


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 22/03/2011 : 11:57
Belle that is assuming that we have moved on when they all finish University. University is not in my opinion a persons right which has to be paid for by the rest of the people who have to work. I hear the arguement we need graduates for the future and I agree, but not everyone needs to be a graduate. Entry qualifications need to be raised so that we are only giving the very best the chance, please note not just the rich, just the best.
I am coming round to the notion that population control maybe the only way out of the situation we are approaching.
It's only a step on from You can't Smoke, You cant have cheap Alcohol, and to much Fat in your Food. It only needs to be presented as logic and hey presto it's Law.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
tripps
Senior Member


1404 Posts
Posted - 22/03/2011 : 12:30
Frank says - "Denis Skinner hasn't done a days work in his lifetime"
Alternatively wikipedia says  -  "He worked as a miner for over 20 years"
Take your pick......


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 22/03/2011 : 12:31
We are lucky in this country in that we can say pretty much what we please without being hauled off or killed on the spot. Civil unrest here is tolerated and usually peaceful, unless of course it is highjacked by a few of those who dont really care, but just want to cause trouble. Let us hope that the civil unrest never goes beyond that, as even in this country there are those who have their own private agendas and are just seeking an excuse.


thomo Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 22/03/2011 : 13:17
Correction

Dennis Skinner hasn't done a days work in over 20 years.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 22/03/2011 : 18:21


quote:
frankwilk wrote:

I am coming round to the notion that population control maybe the only way out of the situation we are approaching.
It's only a step on from You can't Smoke, You cant have cheap Alcohol, and to much Fat in your Food. It only needs to be presented as logic and hey presto it's Law.

I like your idea Frank. We would very soon finish up with a nation consisting of nothing but the off-spring of politicians (as they would be the only ones allowed to breed) and it would bloody well serve them right.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 23/03/2011 : 01:01


quote:
frankwilk wrote:
Correction

Dennis Skinner hasn't done a days work in over 20 years.
I wouldn't say that to his face , if I were you Frank......



BRADDERS BLUESINGER Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 23/03/2011 : 05:30
Dennis Skinner has same career path as people like Ernie Bevin and Nye Bevan. Workers to legislators, I don't see anything wrong with that. They got there on merit and support from their constituencies.I'd rather see a pedigree like that than a career path based on wealth and privilege.

My view of what is happening in Libya isn't dictated by the media, it's my opinion based on watching what is happening, listening to the reports and asking questions. If Libya is a legitimate target on humanitarian grounds what about all the other repressive regimes? Why the knee jerk reaction? Could it be national interest based on security of energy supplies in the Middle East? Could it be armchair warriors posturing? I seem to remember the US Chief of Staff pulling Cameron et al up sharply when the no-fly zone was mooted pointing out that it wasn't as simple as that and involved bombing. Now we hear politicians saying 'no boots on the ground' and then announcing that SAS spotters are at work. Remember the 'advisers' in Vietnam? The interference in Afghanistan that spawned the Taliban and Al Quaeeda? (both sponsored by CIA as a way of encouraging clandestine attack on Russia) Remember the main criticism of the incursion into Iraq, that no planning had been done for the end game or reconstruction? These questions are being asked on the Hill in Washington and in Parliament by responsible legislators who have joined the same dots. Will we still be interfering in five years or is all this a gamble based on the fact that the only end game in sight is if Gadafi scuttles for safety? We should all be asking the same questions.

By the way, a government spokesman said that the money to pay for the action comes out of the MOD budget. Really? I thought that they were heavily in debt and reported as not fit for purpose and in need of radical reform. How many of the pilots and support staff will get a P45 while in theatre? Look at it any way you like, this is an ill-thought out reaction and is producing a mess that will take years to clear up.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 23/03/2011 : 07:27
 the money to pay for the action comes out of the MOD budget. Really?

Yep it does all the Military have a Training Budget, and a Live Firing budget. Just they have used it all at once, and to great effect.
 I still stand by the exit strategy we just stop flying over Libyan Airspace when you don't have troops on the ground you don't need any fancy plans.
 For once in a generation we have the opportunity to help the Arab People which we hope will lead to influence/trust in the future, that appears to be the bigger picture.



Edited by - frankwilk on 23/03/2011 08:05:52 AM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 23/03/2011 : 08:12
Bradders welcome back. I would have no problem telling Mr Skinner he has lounged on the Goverment Benches for years. Ever wonder why people like him never progress even in the dirty world of politics ?? 



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 23/03/2011 : 10:46
Not living in Bolsover I have absolutely no idea what Dennis Skinner has done for his constituents over years.  None at all.  Given this, I wouldn't feel at all comfortable telling him he's 'lounged on the ..... benches' for years.  Rather I'd be more polite and perhaps enquire as to his efforts over the years.  There also seems to be the suggestion that not having climbed, or shown an intention to climb, the greasy pole of advancement is somehow a failing.  It is worth noting that the new Conservative MP Sarah Wollaston (a GP), was very vocal in the press when she was informed by her whips that if she served on the Health Select Committee, she would have to watch what she said on health matters (where she has strong and in parts dissenting views from her Government).

 
I would have thought there is merit in deciding to be a constituency MP and that alone.  And not that it is somehow a form of sloth.  Having strived for many a year to become an MP and then realise that you are little more than lobby fodder for the whips must crush many people and surely, those that rise above this should be applauded whatever party they belong to.  And of all people Frank, I'd have seen you as leading the applause. 

 
How would population control work?  Would we have to 'neuter' folk if they persist in 'breeding' too much?  And who'll do this 'spaying'?

 
Richard Broughton



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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 23/03/2011 : 12:17
I thought it was refreshing to see Anthony Wedgewood Ben on Newsnight two night's ago, raising more coherently than any politicians I have listened to in the last ten years, what the salient questions were regarding our involvment in Libya, listen again on BBC iplayer if you missed it.


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 23/03/2011 : 12:49
A less painful form of population control that may work is: the first child and parents get the current level of support, the second by a slightly reduced amount, and after that, you are on your own. Newcomers should be given a period of time, say six months to become an integrated contributing member of the community, if they do not, then they should return whence they came.


thomo Go to Top of Page
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