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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  11/01/2009  :  06:04
New Year, new topic. If you want to see the old one do a forum search for same title but 2008.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 09/03/2010 : 16:48
I'll stick to my analysis Frank. You carry on believing that it's compassion that makes people feckless and gives politicos control of society if it makes you happy.

Read 'The Middle Way' and have a rethink. Then read Poverty and Public Health by McGonicle, Chief Medical Officer of Stockton on Tees, Harold MacMillan found him a publisher for it and I know it influenced David Lloyd George because I used to have his heavily annotated copy which I gave to Steve Constantine because he taught me well. If you have time after that read Rowntree's classic, 'Poverty, a study of town life' (1901) and the subsequent studies by the Rowntree Foundation. Immensely respected and very influential. If you're right, they were all wasting their time.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 09/03/2010 : 20:02
Stanley Please see things from todays perspective  not from the late Victoriam/ Edwardian period. If you read what I wrote I said it is a brilliant system Oh and I do have compassion in spades. Just the Welfare State as it is today is both bloated over complicated, and over generous, and useless in a lot of cases. My son earns a shed load of money he dosen't need Child Allowance, same as I don't need the Heating Allowance along with hundreds of thousands of others.  How can anyone on the minimum wage be liable to Income Tax ?? I know why because the Tax is needed to prop up the Welfare system ( unmarried mothers spring to mind ) the system has gone horribly wrong, think back to the 30s & 40s the Grandmother brought up the illigitmate child as her own never got a handout from the state
 !!! Trouble with Historians is they can't let go of History do you not see the System today as Control ?? would you vote for anyone who promised you less ?. We have one of the finest Public Health systems in the world, by the way I had three ancestors from Foulridge who all died of typhus fever in the 1800s.
I don't see this as a fight with you just a differing of opinion, like you I don't know the answers, but I do look for them in the future.

Don't let the past stop you moving to the future.

ps I don't believe everything I read in a book Rowntree mmmmm

Edited by - frankwilk on 10/03/2010 07:25:46 AM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 05:34
Frank, If you read what I wrote originally you'll see that I wasn't defending the bloated system that we have at the moment, I was warning about hidden cut-backs which will leave millions of people worse off.

I have nothing against means-testing as it is applied today. I am on a means tested benefit and it's a fair system. The old system in the 1930s got a bad name because it was shamefully repressive and had no floor in it, the destitute were forced to sell everything before they could get even a meagre benefit.

Unlike you Frank, I look back as well as forward. I note the past and identify the good policies and the mistakes and apply them to today and the future. This is what I was doing in my original post, showing that the improvements in the safety nets we have for the needy were a cross party effort based on the realities of life and what was best for the country. The Beveridge Report was initiated by the coalition government in the war because we needed to plan for the future. My point was that despite the desperate economic situation the Atlee goverment didn't put it off, they implemented it and raised the quality of life of the nation. My fear now is that Cameron hasn't read history and I think his obscure language hides a retreat from state involvement and a reversion to local funding and charitable work to fulfill functions at present being quite properly the responsibility of the state. This was the 19th century attitude that had to be reformed because it wasn't working.

Remember what John Major said about the Lottery Fund? It would never be used to pay for government functions. That was a hollow promise if ever there was one. It has been used for everything from providing hospital equipment to funding national sports.

'ps I don't believe everything I read in a book Rowntree mmmmm'

I don't understand this. Are you saying that you have read Rowntree and don't believe him? Or are you saying that you don't trust books full stop? Whichever it is you are on dodgy ground. Rowntree saw what was wrong and went out to find the evidence. The opinion of the majority of people who have taken the trouble to read him is that he got it right. This was the first of a series of books on the social condition which kept track of what was happening in real life by examining the evidence and started the study of social science. Even today, the Rowntree Foundation has a world-wide reputation for reliable research and opinion. Are you denigrating a track record like that?


Stanley Challenger Graham




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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 05:54
My we have just moved the bad habits to another topic! Stanley how can you say that Frank does not look both ways  just because you don't agree with him?  There are always at least two sides to every discussion, once again let's keep it that way or change the topic to "Stanley's View"!.


HERB


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 07:46
Herb, it was me who was castigated for taking no heed of today's conditions. If stating a view, giving evidence and then defending it is a bad habit count me in every time. Frank has given no evidence he takes notice of history and has cast doubts on 'reading books'. That's against my religion and I shall defend them. If we ignore the past we are in danger of repeating the mistakes. It's called experience, that's how I learn and we are lucky enough to have evidence beyond personal experience in people like Rowntree, Booth and Reach. I read them and take note.

The 'Stanley's View' crack is a cheap shot. It is Frank's View as well and yours if you'd care to express one instead of simply sniping from the touch-line.Neither of us is forced to be right, we are both expressing our view, this is allowed and needn't be argument. He is as entitled to his view as I am and is, like me allowed to try to persuade. One thing is certain, none of what either of us believes will make one jot of difference but it's nice to be able to air an opinion.

I repeat my message, listen carefully to the weasel words of the politicians, both Tory and Labour,  they are not telling us the truth and are all desperately trying to avoid the subject of the austerity to come. The only party being anywhere near honest is the Liberals because they have no hopes of government to damage. (Look what happened to Little Darling when he told it how it is. In his own words, 'The forces of hell' were unleashed against him. Cue a chorus of denials from Godron's clique.)


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 13:40
I think it is starting to unravel over Ashcroft, it looks like after the election he will start an on line media company. Now that will upset Murdock and his profits.So why not use your press machine "The Times" to keep Ashcroft in the spot light and portray him in as bad a light as possible !!!!.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 15:07
Stanley
The Largest selling book of all times Is the Bible and I don't believe a word of it.

Shouldn't mix Politics and Religion, but the Bish does



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 16:22
You think I control the Times? Not a true word in the Bible? This is surreal, I shall go and do something constructive like make my tea....


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/03/2010 : 21:39
You think I control the Times?  No Stanley Murdock does that.

So why not use your press machine "The Times" to keep Ashcroft in the spot light and portray him in as bad a light as possible !!!!. 
The reference is to Mr Murdock using his Newspapers to portray Ashcroft in a poor light. Which is a fact.

Do you really believe the Bible to be a true and accurate account of history  ?? even the Bishop of York cast doubt on the Virgin Birth. My refernce was tounge in cheek
My ref to The Rowntree Foundation was because they are clearly a left wing think tank.
Joseph Rowntree was a fine man I just think his name has been hi jacked. The Welfare State was supposed to be a Safety Net.  It has become a tool of the State (no matter who is in power) That is my issue with it.




Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2010 : 05:20
Frank, I'm getting very bored with this. I have no press machine, Murdoch was supporting the Tories last time I looked.

You have made an erroneous leap by assuming that the opposite of 'not believing a word' is 'believe Bible to be a true and accurate account of history' which is ridiculous. I subscribe to neither point of view. I don't see things as black or white but shades of grey. The Bible is a partial collection of heavily edited old texts and has to be interpreted. I took the trouble to read Karen Armstrong 'A History of God',  Diarmid Maculloch's 'history of Christianity' and quite a lot of CS Lewis to help me get a handle on the subject and understand the status of the Bible better so I have a different position.

Your comment about Seebohm Rowntree (Not Joseph) insults a good man and shows total ignorance. Rowntree was a Quaker and that was the root of his concern for the plight of the poor. There was no 'left-wing' in the late 19th century, the radicals were the Liberal Party. The Rownree Foundation still has the same aims as the ones that drove him and is one of the most respected voices in the field so you insult them as well. Have you ever read any of the major reports they issued at intervals from 1901 onwards? I doubt if you have and yet you feel qualified to denigrate their work without even understanding what they are saying.

I spent a year reading Rowntree and it is on that basis my opinion rests. Go and have a look at them with an open mind and you may even find they make sense.He established models of investigation to find hard evidence on which to base his opinions, a concept the foundation still uses today.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2010 : 08:30
I to am bored with this.
I still believe that the Welfare State is failing, and that it is a control method for keeping the poor poor. You are behaving like Godron never answering any questions but wrapping up your answers up in diversions . Do you not think that by doling out benefits controls peoples lives ?? and as a consequence their voting habits ??

ps The Times does support the Tories but not Ashcroft,  now sort that one out !!!!

Edited by - frankwilk on 11/03/2010 08:34:41 AM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2010 : 09:32
You two are a pair!! Lets hope you never get stuck in a lift together!!

Frank although I agree largely with your view of todays welfare system as needing a complete overhaul, i do not agree that Cameron is the man to do it, or the man to do anything...he is without any substance at all. Interestingly, G B on the other hand is one of the first people in politics I would ever bother to vote for (Shirley williams would have been the other) not becuase I am a socialst , in fact I would prefer it if he were leading another party, but because I think he has integrity.

I know you are all laughing, but it's amazing how often the media invokes playground methods of whipping up negative opinions from people who can't think for themselves, it is all too easy to jump on the bandwagon of "he looks odd and is scottish so he isn't fit to lead us!" but if you can look past that ..here is a man who had the power to cover up the expenses scandal (Blair had been managing to do it very nicely for years!) but chose to let us all see the corruption in power , even in his own party. That takes a certain type of courage and integrity. Here is a man who isn't prepared to put up with people around him who get paid a fortune for doing very little sloping slackly about and he expects them to meet deadlines etc or expect to get shouted at...oo er the "terribly naice genteel lay abouts" in the government aren't having an uncivilised Scot talking to them like that , and they've thrown their toys out of the pram with cries of "Gordon's a bully!"
What horrifies me is that we have become so conditioned by the endless drivel poured over us by silly little, middle class scarfed "proffessionals" standing outside no. 10 and pouting to camera, that we are but a step away from voting in film stars like they do in the states.
I would have the Scots running the country any day, sensible, prudent, hard working people with a common sense attitude to life would get my vote .. as for these foppish pansies that make up most of the media and politics, overbloated with their own opinions and completely unable to be objective or discerning about any thing, they are not worth turning up at a polling station for. 
 The recent prog on MP's living with people on the dole highlighted how ridiculous things have got, at least two of the "uneducated" so called scroungers were more eloquent and clued up regarding how to run the country than the MP's were.

One last thing, your comment about the bible Frank, leads me to think that you are 'jumping on the bandwagon' type of thinker...having studied history at uni, I can tell you that every historical document, every historical account, has to be verified by primary and secondary sources...that is  the accounts of those who witnessed it at the time, and later corroborations, including archeology etc, if we can get the emotion of religion out of the way for a moment, the bible fulfills that criteria in exactly the same way that any other  historical document does. It has the acounts of those who witnessed it at the time, backed up by Josephus (Jewish historian) and other contemporary historians, and it is corroborated by archeology.
The fact that Jesus Christ lived is as valid as the fact that Napoleon lived, or Ceaser Augustus or anyone else you want to name from history. By saying you don't believe it, as many do who are yet quite happy to believe in other documents and books corroborated in the same way, (Hannibals crossing of the Alps or the doomsday book , the Magna Carta, for example, the list is endless) shows me that your opinions are coloured more by what it is fashionable to think, rather than an independant objective approach. It is very hard to find people who are truly able to think independantly as we are all coloured by our peers opinions, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to. It is great to see you and Stanley striving in this way!


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handlamp
Senior Member


1100 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2010 : 11:50
Belle, I think you'll find that The Telegraph's persistence was responsible for sorting the expenses scandal out, your mate GB had to get on the bandwagon eventually. About the only politician to come out of it with really clean hands is John Mann the Worksop MP. Regretfully I have to agree with you about `Our Dave' , just another TB, but my overriding priority is to get this lot out. Attlee, Bevin & Co. must be turning over ion their graves. Who I will eventually vote for is another matter, most likely UKIP (if I get the opportunity). To get out of the EU gravy train can't be bad.


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Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2010 : 13:10
''Belle, I think you'll find that The Telegraph's persistence was responsible for sorting the expenses scandal out''
Wrong.  It was an Anglo-American journalist Heather Brooke who had the gumption to use the FoI Act to force publication, eventually after several years, at enormous potential personal cost to herself. 
The Telegraph did what a certain type of newspaper normally does in this country - sit on their backsides, and then (allegedly) pay a disgruntled middleman on the make, to give them stolen documents.  Which they then published, in an order reflecting their political agenda, whilst Heather Brooke looked on in bewilderment.
She wrote all about her heroic efforts, and it's grubby denoument for her, in The Guardian last year.  It was the subject of a BBC4 drama the other week.  Her parents were from Liverpool - they should put up a plaque for her in the city.

 
Richard Broughton



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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2010 : 13:57
Belle
I don't jump on bandwagons because I would probably fall off.
I just can't believe all the stuff about the virgin birth, and Moses coming down with the ten commandments etc, even though I believe they are a good social model to live by.
I wonder are we the last half a dozen people who care about how we are managed, because we haven't been Governed for quite a while now, in fact since Maggie was in No10Wink



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