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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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17/11/2004
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14:52
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Opening text too long so I've moved it to the first response.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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andydiamond
Hairy Horologist
424 Posts
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Posted - 17/11/2004 : 19:32
Eyup Stanley, that were reight gradeley tha knows.
Andy.
Can I park the article here with you Andy?
DIALECT AND OTHER REGIONAL MATTERS
Anyone who read the splendid exchanges earlier this year on Oneguy about the North/South divide in Britain will have realised that regardless of the scale of the divide, there is certainly a difference. What was also clear is that there are local variations, A Colner regards himself as an entirely different being than a Barlicker.
As many of you will know, I have several theories about this: The difference between the experience of Roman Civil Rule in the South and Military Rule in the North. The genetic differences resulting from inter-marriage with invaders. The cultural difference rooted in climate and the political and religious differences generated by distance and more significantly in the days of difficult transport, the remoteness of the North from the seat of power in London.
One of the key features about the history of the Isles is the manner in which a reasonably civilised accommodation was reached very early on in the process of amalgamation. It’s almost as though the collective common sense eventually realised that as we were all inhabitants of a relatively small island it would be as well to convert national antagonism to regional rivalry. How that process was conceived and accomplished is far to big a subject for this short piece but is an interesting field of research.
It’s true that on occasions some vitriol creeps in, attacks on Welsh Holiday homes spring to mind but on the whole we shy away from such excesses. The recent ‘No’ vote on the North East Assembly is strong evidence of this, for whatever reason, the electors decided that the status quo was preferable to another expensive layer of government.
Ideally, anyone who looks at these subjects should be detached, objective and dispassionate. I have to confess that I am badly qualified. I have an English mother, one of whose ancestors was arrested for ‘seditious riot’ in Ashton under Lyne in 1847 and my father was Australian. I have a healthy suspicion of authority and a strong leaning towards independence and individuality. It would be as well to work on the assumption that whilst striving for objectivity I am genetically programmed towards bias.
What triggered this piece off was that as I was writing an article I wanted to use the word ‘maliking’, I’ve never seen it written so the spelling is a matter of choice. It’s a dialect word and means mischievous play. It occurred to me that it might be related to ‘laiking’ a Norse word we use for play. Could a better spelling be ‘malaiking’? Laiking with a prefix suggesting bad? It fits, ‘Stop malaiking about!’ is a common injunction to children who are being too high-spirited.
As usual, other examples of completely unique words came to mind. ‘Slur’ for slip. ‘Slape’ for slippy or quick. ‘I’m just going to pop in the pub for a slape pint’. ‘Wick’ for being quick, alive or even infested. ‘That dog’s wick wi’ fleas’. ‘Twined’ for being bad-tempered, irritable.
The language difference isn’t limited to the use of unique words. There can be some interesting differences in the use of common words. My favourite is ‘while’. The best example of this is a notice that British Railways put up at minor level crossings that were protected by flashing red lights and no gate. The sign read ‘Wait while lights flash’. It wasn’t until there was an accident that the planners realised that whilst in the south this sign clearly meant wait during the period when the lights flash, in the north it was understood as wait until the lights flash. A simple but fundamental difference that resulted in a fatal accident. I’ve always been struck by the American use of the word ‘momentarily’. Their understanding is that ‘I’ll be with you momentarily’ means in a moment, in a short while. In Britain it means ‘for a short time’.
Add to these regional differences the existence of languages such as Gaelic, Cornish, Welsh and it becomes easy to understand why those in authority see standardisation of language as an essential tool of governance. ‘Received Pronunciation’ or as many people regard it, ‘Talking posh’ was promoted as the standard language. In the early days of the BBC this pressure reached its peak to the extent that no person with a regional accent was allowed to broadcast except as an example of a curiosity. A broadcaster called Wilfred Pickles was installed as a news reader shortly after WW2. He spoke standard received pronunciation but with a pronounced Yorkshire inflexion. He lasted about a week. About five years ago a programme that Newton Pickles and I made for Radio 4 with Phil Smith was heavily edited to remove Newton on the grounds that ‘people wouldn’t be able to understand him’. I remember a senior civil servant being with me when I was talking to Newton once and as we walked away he said ‘I take it you were speaking English?’ He was pulling my leg I think but had been totally confounded by the combination of dialect and technicalities, we were of course talking about steam engines.
Language isn’t the only difference of course. You will commonly hear words such as ‘blunt’, ‘direct’ and other descriptions implying tough, abrasive or even unmannerly behaviour used when describing people from ‘The North’. Part of this is connected with a perception that a harsher climate and distance from ‘Southern culture’ automatically resulted in ‘coarse’ behaviour. I always remember some advice I was given by David Moore when I was regarding meetings in London with senior civil servants and funders with some trepidation. After all, I was a naïve north country person and would be hopelessly out-gunned by these professional negotiators. David told me to work on the assumption that they would actually be more worried about me than I was about them. He said that they thought that Northerners were tough, efficient and formidable negotiators. He told me to do my homework and present a convincing case but use the ‘blunt Northener’ persona to reinforce this. It seemed to work, I got over £5million out of them in eight years!
I can still remember how reassuring it was for me when, as a very nervous ‘mature student’ I started on a course in English and Linguistics at Lancaster. The tutor, a bloke called professor Mowatt took me on one side one day and reassured me that he was fascinated by my use of language and my dialect and congratulated me on how accurate I was in my speech. He’d picked up the fact that I was very conscious of the fact that I had a dialect and went to considerable pains to let me know it was OK. I’ve never forgotten that.
It seems to me that the barrier against regional accents is crumbling and this pleases me. In many ways, dialect is a truer form of English than RP. We retain many old constructions and who is to say what is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. I love the way that our local dialect still uses Norse and Old English words. Look up ‘boose’ and ‘boskin’ and then search for other words that agriculture has preserved. Laithe for barn, mistal for cowshed there is a long list of echoes from our past preserved in these words and place-names. Let those who regard culture as being synonymous with speaking ‘correctly’ have their way. We will stick to out dialect and actually display a deeper level of culture by doing so.
SCG/17 November 2004
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Doc
Keeper of the Scrolls
2010 Posts
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Posted - 17/11/2004 : 19:49
Many years ago when I was involved in Telesales, I had to develop a telephone voice that was not my natural way of speaking, slow and precise, so that folk from all the country could understand me. On many occasions I reverted to my natural deep and broad accent, unbeknown to me this eventually worked to my advantage, you see people had to listen harder in order to understand this thick accent on the phone, hence I use to get their 100% attention and I am sure it clinched more than a few orders for me. My accent was often commented on by the young ladies of the southern counties at the other end of the phone and also while I was serving in the Navy.
Talking about being in the Navy, after 6 months at sea with a bunch of guys from all over the country with their rich mix of accents, it was said on my arrival home on leave, that my accent had "mellowed" or "blended", this soon reverted back to its original twang after a few days and a few pints.
To me, individuals who are 'Neutral' or have ‘Received Pronunciation’ seem to have a bit missing from their character, accent/dialect is a major part of what makes a person what they are, I for one am very proud of my dialect and so you should be too. |
Hatepe (R.I.P.)
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Posted - 17/11/2004 : 19:56
Ask any old timer in the textile industry about the word 'oil?? They will say "Willy 'oil" for the machine that opens wool fibres, "Chip 'oil" for the Chip Shop, "Pint 'oil" for the tap room in a pub, "Sh-t 'oil" for the toilet and numerous others.
A southern gent did enquire what the Northerners used for lubrication??? and the old tackler said - "Greeease"!!!!
Aye Hatepe
R.W.King |
Stevie
Mad Woman of Thornton
834 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2004 : 02:34
Strange this, as tonight my daughter's friend from Essex rang her and at one point my daughter put her on 'speaker phone' to enable her to talk to both of us at the same time. For some reason I felt rather homesick, not for the place but for the accent!
Although I have many friends down South that I am in close contact with, I realised tonight that they dont have the 'typical' Essex accent that I myself have as does my daughter and her Essex friends. As I told her pal on the phone, it was wonderful to hear it again and I felt quite nostalgic for it, something I havent felt in all the time we have been here. Perhaps a brief visit down South is overdue, just for a recap on 'proper' dialect!  |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2004 : 07:00
Doc's right about people listening harder to a strange dialect. When we were transcribing the LTP in the old days at Pendle Heritage I intervioewed for the job of transcriptionist and chose an Italian lady who spoke very bad English. They all thought I was mad but Adrianne was brilliant, she could hardly understand what they were saying and had to listen very hard. She was incredibly accurate! In the end she picked up a twang from listening to the tapes and her English improved no end.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
handlamp
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Posted - 18/11/2004 : 16:22
I'm firmly convinced that ones dialect is affected by association. When, as a proud Yorkie I served a `missionary' period of seven years in Lancashire and then moved into Derbyshire to further spread the `gospel'there I was affectionately awarded the nickname of `Rochdale Joe'
Ted |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2004 : 16:27
I agree with you Ted. I was born in Stockport and didn't come into this area until I was 22 years pld but I don't think anyone could fault my Yorkshire now. When I worked in Warwickshire for a year I used to get my leg pulled because I had a Midlands accent. I could do my 'Lordy! Ow that wheel do wamble'. with the best of them. I still use words like 'lutter' even today.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Marcia
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Posted - 23/11/2004 : 12:51
My accent is a bit scattered now, given that my life was equally divided between Yorkshire and Berkshire before I moved to Lancashire.
When I'm up North I'm told I sound posh, but Southerners can spot the Northern twang. I've never really been self-conscious about it though - there's not much one can do about picking up and losing accents depending on where one lives - it's almost like having souvenir stickers on a suitcase :)
I have still retained some of my parents' and Nan's phrases, however - regardless of accent! As Stanley mentioned, "wick" was a common phrase in our house, as was "dish-clout" for dish-cloth, among others. And I once confused my partner by describing someone who was sulking as having "got the monk on".
I was interested to find that in parts of the USA, fizzy drinks are called "pop" rather than "soda" and this does seem to speak of Northern/Scottish/Irish heritage, according to a friend who lived there.
- Marcia Allass
(http://www.sequentialtart.com) |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 23/11/2004 : 15:01
I esed to spend a lot of time in Northfield, MN and being a Norwegian town there were a lot of Norwegian words and customs. Funnily enough they recognised 'laok' for play because it came from Old Norse and is still current in Norway today.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 01/03/2008 : 07:15
Worth another look?
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Julie in Norfolk
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Posted - 01/03/2008 : 09:18
Certainly is worth another look Stanley. Speaking as one whose accent has moderated through absence and time, there's nowt like a visit to mi mum's to bring it back. My vowels have never left me, it is to everyone else's hilarity on occasions when summat slips out. The moderation of my accent is something I regret although it was not a delibarate choice, long live the regional accent.
I once heard someone postulate that accents move from South to North and the northern accent is possibly similar to that spoken in Tudor times by the court. No idea if this is true. It just stuck in my mind.
Measure with a micrometer.
Mark with a pencil.
Cut with an axe. |
moh
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Posted - 01/03/2008 : 09:24
We had to talk 'properly' at SGHS - I can still do it if I am on the 'phone or talking to someone else who talks 'posh' - but my every day accent has reverted to Lancashire (not broad but Lancashire). I mentioned to Calluna when we met that she still has traces of the SGHS dialect!!
Say only a little but say it well |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 01/03/2008 : 09:56
What fascinates and educates me is the connection between dialect, placenames and personal names which can give you real insights into the history of a particular locality. Look at the way names with Norse roots map the extent of Viking incursion and settlement.
There's another aspect of dialect that also intrigues me. This is the antipathy exhibited by certain sections of the populace to any form of dialect. This is often liked to the influence of the BBC but I think has existed for much longer than that. If you want to form a clique, first invent a manner of speaking and a body of slang to go with it. Look at any close community like a public school and you'll find all the hallmarks of an exclusive society expressed in the language. Anyone who doesn't conform is seen as an outsider. Of course the opposite is true, in an area of strong dialect strangers are immediately recognisable by dialect or lack of it. Perhaps that is the reason why dialect persists, as a defence mechanism against change and dilution. If so, I'm all for it. Individuality, in whatever guise it appears, gets my vote every time.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Tizer
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Posted - 01/03/2008 : 12:30
British Shetlanders and Danish Jutlanders understand each other because the dialects are so close. Which is very useful because the Danes like to visit Shetland frequently - not to get up to Viking antics but to fill up their boats with cheap booze.
One of my favourite Northern dialect words is moithering because my Blackburn grandma was always telling me to "stop thi moitherin". My dictionary only says 17thC, of obscure origin but I wonder how it arose? Another good one was blethering, and grandma often substituted that for moithering (not that I want you to think I was a troublesome child, of course).
Edited by - Tizer on 01/03/2008 12:36:59
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belle
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Posted - 01/03/2008 : 12:50
I love dialect and language, and studied linguistics for a short while at uni. I grew up with all sorts of sounds to feast my ears on; lots of native Nelson, a bit of yorkshire, mixed with posh. Then, when I moved to scotland, very broad accents, and the fun of listening to "Posh scots" accents i.e " Morningside" (Edinburgh) or "Kelvinside" (Glasgow) ..years later it was Cumbria, and their accent was fascinating too.... I have kept favourite snippets from all of them:
My epitomy of childhood is the rich 'R' sound in the word Todmordon, the pronunciation of Bradford, as Bratfrd, the phrase "'appen perhaps" the strange swap of the 't' and 'ck' sounds so you get "tittle" for tickle and "lickle" for little (that's some thing I would love to study more about)... the use of the word 'Shippen' for cowshed, the "reach me the salt" that my Yorkshire mum used to say, ( a dutch friend who having "studied" english, knew a lot more about it than me ,who just spoke it, once said the phrase "reach me the salt" was old english grammar)... our cheeky reply to my mother used to be "yes I can reach you, and would you like the salt as well!?" (even the word 'fetch' as in 'fetch me the mop' is becoming old fashioned!)
Then there is the word Aye....the only thing I took in to the wilds of Scotland that was anything like their language...it is amazing how out of place a north of england 'aye' is in a scots conversation...the bits I liked from that area of scotland were the odd use of 'doubt'
"I doubt she'll win"
"I doubt she'll no!" being two different sides of an argument I heard on school sports day! The word 'shuggle' (pronounced shoogle)for jiggle, or nudge, 'dreeche' describing a dull wet day, "fee-art" the pronunciation of the word meaning to be afraid...not understood in the middle of Scotland where the scots is much more anglisised.
In cumbria my favourite phrase was "I would say so!" used plentifully by the older residents of our village to mean "yes, of course!(you berk!implied)"...with the word 'say' drawn out in the middle so it sounded "saay so". Then there was the quaint reply to any phrase that went "I didn't like ..." or " I wouldn't do.." etc it was always "Did you not?" "Would you not?" etc the vowels in Cumbrian seem to get longer the nearer to Carlisle you get , particularly the last vowel of the sentence, so there were those I met who said things like "I have been to Safewaaaays" "how is Daviiiiid?" etc some times the last vowel was so long it was a job not to laugh with delight whilst they were talking.! Now I am back in yorkshire, but many of the accents are less pronounced, it's my friends from other parts of yorkshire, who use words like "Weunt" for wont .... and perhaps the biggest change from my childhood is how few, if any, use the thee's and tha's nowadays.
Edited by - belle on 01/03/2008 12:56:06 PM
Life is what you make it |
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Dialect and other regional matters.
