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Tizer
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 Posted -
20/01/2008
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17:15
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The bottom picture is from an Australian postcard which features in an article by Philip J. Chapman on page 32 of "Picture Postcard Monthly" magazine (January 2008 - lots of interesting poctcards shown in each issue!). I have kept the image small to avoid upsetting Mr Chapman. I have enlarged the two warships from the postcard image. Mr Chapman wonders whether the ships are Australian Navy or Royal Navy. The card is dated 17th November 1913 and was sent from "Wal" in Australia to "Pearl" in Wymondham, Norfolk, UK. The view is of Sydney harbour with the ships at anchor.
I have put these pictures on the OGFB site for general interest but also because someone might be able to provide more details of the ships. I started a new thread rather than disrupting the objectives of thomo's thread!
Tizer
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frankwilk
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Posted - 20/01/2008 : 17:59
Thought the 4 funnel one could be HMS Minotaur light cruiser
Frank Wilkinson Once Navy Always Navy  |
frankwilk
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Posted - 20/01/2008 : 18:00
The other one could be a river class
Edited by - frankwilk on 20/01/2008 6:04:55 PM
Edited by - frankwilk on 20/01/2008 6:06:15 PM
Frank Wilkinson Once Navy Always Navy |
Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 20/01/2008 : 19:26
Well Tizer, it’s a perilous proposition identifying old warships from photographs, but here is my guess. The light ship (2 funnels) is difficult, but I am reasonably confident that it is a 3rd class protected cruiser of the Pelorus class. Which one? Well, I’ve listed the ones that served on the Australia station below. The list could be whittled down by accessing ship movement documents. But we need to know the date of the photograph to bother with that.
I am quite confident that the heavy ship (4 funnels) is the 1st class protected cruiser HMS Powerful.
Pelorus 3rd class protected cruiser; later reclassified as light cruiser
Members of Pelorus class to serve on Australian Squadron prior to 1913:
HMS Pioneer taken into RAN to become HMAS Pioneer in 1913
HMS Psyche taken into RAN to become HMAS Psyche in 1915
HMS Phoebe
HMS Pyramus
HMS Pegasus (sunk SMS Königsburg, Zanzibar 1914)
HMS Prometheus
HMAS Pioneer
Complement 224
Launched: 1899
Length: 305 feet
Beam: 36 feet 6 inches
Draught: 17 feet
Displacement: 2135 tons
Speed: 20.5 knots (design speed)
Machinery Inverted 3 cylinder triple expansion; 2 shafts
Horsepower 5,000 normal; 7,000 forced draught
Armament: 8 x 4-inch QF guns
8 x 3-pounder QF guns
2 x 14-inch torpedo tubes
Armour: 2 inches deck
HMS Powerful 1st class protected cruiser
Flagship of the Australian Squadron
Complement 894
Launched: 1895
Length: 500 feet
Beam: 71 feet
Draught: 27 feet
Displacement: 14,200 tons
Speed: 22 knots (design speed)
Machinery 4 cylinder VTE multiple expansion
Horsepower 25,000 hp forced draught
Armament: 2 x 9.2-inch guns
12 x 6-inch guns
16 x 12-pounder QF guns
12 x 3-pounder QF guns
4 x 18-inch torpedo tubes
Armour: 2-6 in deck
6 in barbettes
Edited by - Ribble Rouser on 21/01/2008 11:50:28
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 20/01/2008 : 19:35
Frank. HMS Minotaur was an armoured cruiser
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
frankwilk
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Posted - 20/01/2008 : 22:07
Just thought I would get it going,
First thought was something like manxman. I could identify a Whitby or a Leander, anything earlier I defer to the older ones amongst us
Frank Wilkinson Once Navy Always Navy |
frankwilk
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Posted - 20/01/2008 : 22:10
Half a ToT says someone comes up with something different.!!!!!!
Older seadogs than me can remember seeing these ships under way.
Frank Wilkinson Once Navy Always Navy |
softsuvner
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Posted - 20/01/2008 : 23:39
I am getting a bit confused here boys.
I have come across HMS Powerful in my family history research. An ancestor once claimed (in a local newspaper article) to have been at the Battle of Jutland. I recently looked up his seamans record sheet in the National Archive, and found that he was allocated as a boy sailor to HMS Powerful from January 1916 to July the following year. My researches led me to believe that HMS Powerful was tied up at Devonport as a Training Ship from 1909 onwards. This rather coloured my attitude to this relative!
Any ideas?
Malcolm
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softsuvner
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 00:16
Another query I forgot to add:
On the Seamans Record Card, ships are given a number and a list.
HMS Powerful is on list 14. I can't find any reference to these ship lists. But the only active ship my relative seems to have served on in the First War is "Kildonan Castle",(I have found some details of her on the web), which is on list 5. Anybody know where I can find these lists?
I would be grateful for any suggestions.
Malcolm
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Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 04:15
Hey Frank. Might have to send you half a tot. Malcolm has launched a tin fish that is threatening to hit my guesswork amidships. Scuse my Minotaur response…I’m so pedantic about these things. And don’t ask me about post WWII naval vessels…that’s where my knowledge runs very thin. Or the USN (wot’s that?). So! I’m one of the older ones amongst us, am I? Oh no! Hope you don’t think I served on one of those vessels. 
Malcolm, I will have a considered response to your conundrum soon.
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 05:30
HMS Powerful protected cruiser 1st class
Launched 1895
Served China Station
Served in Boer War 1899
Refit 1902 - 1904
Australia Squadron 1905-1911 (flagship for unknown part of that time, but carrying the pennant of Sir Arthur D. Fanshawe KCB in 1905). Some sources list the vessel as in reserve during this period, but from the photographic evidence and service histories here in Australia, there is no doubt that the vessel was in Australian waters. It was the case during this period that warships not considered to be of the first rank were sent to serve on quiet stations like Australia
Returned UK, partially disarmed and used for harbour service from 1912
Served as accommodation and training ship in WWI
Renamed HMS Impregnable 1919 and continued as training ship (Plymouth)
Disposed 1929
Relying solely on the names of vessels in the historical record is an unreliable technique. Both merchant and naval vessels change their names. I think there have been at least four or five HMS Powerfuls (the last an aircraft carrier?). I would, however, be very surprised if HMS Powerful the protected cruiser 1st class, or a vessel carrying the same name, was at Jutland. By 1904, HMS Powerful (and sister ship HMS Terrible) was considered to be of limited fighting quality and assigned to secondary duties. I can find no listing of a ship of that name in the order of battle at Jutland.
Regarding RN ship lists. Perhaps what you seek is in the National Maritime Museum Research Guide for the Royal Navy:
‘Ship lists and movements
Navy List 1782–present
The official Navy List shows Royal Navy ships, their commanders and officers, coastguard vessels, hired vessels and packet ships. Early-19th century volumes also list French, Spanish and American ships taken during the Napoleonic Wars and British ships lost, captured or destroyed.’
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.584
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
frankwilk
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 06:53
I thought this a good link for warships http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/vosper_thornycroft.htm
Frank Wilkinson Once Navy Always Navy |
frankwilk
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 07:00
Ribble Rouser "Hope you don’t think I served on one of those vessels" No not earlier enough, I thought you stood by the Victory in the new Forrest.
Frank Wilkinson Once Navy Always Navy |
Tizer
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 12:02
The knowledge you guys have amazes me! I thought the response to this postcard would be "Sorry, pictures not good enough". And I hope Malcolm manages to get something extra about his ancestors from this discussion. Frank's suggested web site is great!
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Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 12:08
Malcolm, none of my information on HMS Powerful is from primary sources. If your research has thrown up different dates, it is worth investigating further. They may be right. I have, however, sighted a photograph of the cruiser in Sydney harbour dated 1910. It seems most likely that Powerful was in fact a training ship at the time of Jutland. But I wonder about the Seaman’s record that you have sighted being entirely accurate and comprehensive, especially during time of war. Perhaps boy sailors were assigned to warships at sea as part of their training but still nominally based at their training establishment? I seem to remember that there was a shortage of sailors from time to time during WWI, as all possible ships had to be manned to wartime complements. This urgency might have further complicated record keeping.
Edited by - Ribble Rouser on 21/01/2008 12:16:17
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 12:24
Frank. For me to have been chopping away in the New Forest, fashioning knees and frames for HMS Victory, I would have had to have had a heart of oak. If I am what I eat, mine is beer and curry.
Tizer, mine’s the result of a misspent childhood. My dad had a couple of books on RN ships and I just had to find out more about them…been obsessed ever since.
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
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