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karlelden
Regular Member


78 Posts
Posted -  03/01/2007  :  15:06

I'm just beginning to explore this amazing website, and I put "engine" in your search engine and came up with a BUNCH of hits.  I started looking around and decided you people are living in the tall corn compared with us in the US.  I have maybe 2 decent larger stationary steam engines to look at in a 200 mile radius.  At first glance I thought you were in Hawg Heaven.  Looked to me like you had MANY significant preserved engines.

However, I then came upon a picture of the Leigh Mill engine, went to Google to check it out, and came up with this from 1995: 

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba1/ba1news.html


Down past the news about how skulls used to contain brains is this bit of stuff about the Leigh Mill:
"A rare example of an intact traditional spinning-mill, near Wigan in Greater Manchester, is under threat from a proposal to remove the original mill engine from the building.
The early 20th century, listed Grade II* Leigh Mill, with its surviving engine house and engine, is still used as a factory and now manufactures carpets. The owners, Leigh Spinners Ltd, applied for permission to remove the original engine to create more storage space.
Their application went to public inquiry in November, and John Gummer, the Environment Secretary, is expected to decide the matter later this year.
Speaking at the inquiry on behalf of the CBA, Ron Fitzgerald, an industrial archaeologist, said the importance of the 1923 engine was enhanced by its `extremely rare' survival in its original context. `Out of 238 listed mills in the north, only six engines survive,' he said. "

So, does anyone know if this is true?  Are there only 6 surviving mill engines?  And does anyone know what finally happened to this engine in the Leigh Mill?

Karl



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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 23/05/2008 : 10:43
Up to page 300 of almost 500.......  Patience lads.

Walter, did you get the VHS tapes?  Can I destroy the postal reciept? 


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 08:48
Just a reminder, click on this link.....

http://www.5at.co.uk/


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Gugger
Regular Member


61 Posts
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 12:37
Stanley,

Check your mail April 24 and today!

Best regards

Walter


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 25/05/2008 : 06:46
Got the mail but missed the earlier one......  Back to Arthur and the Black Book.....


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 29/05/2008 : 06:09
The Black Book is finished and with Doc who will post it under Rare Texts.  It's a 650kb Word doc. wwith index.  If anyone wants a file, mail me at the address below.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 06/06/2008 : 07:42
I've posted the Arthur Roberts text as plain text in the 'Rare Text' section.  Let me know what you think about it......


Stanley Challenger Graham




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jgb7573
New Member


44 Posts
Posted - 03/12/2008 : 20:14
A question on the lubrication of mill engines.

I've often seen the centrifugal lubricator on the big ends of horizontal engines, but I was intrigued to see on the engine in the Science Museum (originally from Finsley Vale Mill in Burnley I believe) that there was also a wick feed lubricator with sight glass on top of the big end bearing as well. I asked the guys running the engine why that was, but they were unable to give a convincing reply beyond "well maybe it was a change of use".

I thought no more about it until I saw a picture of the Robey engine at Wilsons Woolen Mill in Dunblane (in Richard Hills recent book on the development of power in the Textile Industry) with the same lubrication arangement.

So the question is why have the two methods of lubrication? Theonly thought I could come up with was that the sight feed lubricator was there to ensure there was oil in the bearing at startup.

I made a model of a little horizontal engine a while back and put a centrifugal lubricator on as it always struck me as a neat idea. I always get asked what it's for. 


JohnB,

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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 07:05
John, not surprised that the SM aren't clued up, it's sad. You are almost 100% right. first don't call it the big end, we always called it a crank pin. Reason it is called that is to differentiate it from a journal which is what you have on multi-cylinder IC engines. The bearing at the cross head end is the wrist pin and the one on the crank is the crank pin.

Lubricating the crank pin was always seen as a problem because it is inaccessible while the engine is running. Old beam engines had a drip feed lubricator and this had to last for a full running stint, perhaps 6 hours.  As engine speeds and powers rose they wanted continuous lubrication. The Siberia engine in the SM is a Burnley Ironworks and early in the 20th century they favoured a ratchet driven lubricator that fed the crank pin through a pipe along the con-rod fed through a hinged pipe at the crosshead. See Newton Pickles transcripts and Wellhous engine in Barlick for the problems he had with this. This pipe terminated in a drilling in the con rod where the drip lubricator is now and could be used for an intial injection of oil by rotating the ratchet wheel on the pump before starting.

The hinged pipe to the crosshead was always troublesome, it wore too quickly and some bright spark came up with the idea of feeding the oil in through a drilling in the pin itself and feeding oil through this by that wonderful invention, the Banjo Oiler. Better feed because centrifugal force was always driving the oil out to the brasses in the con rod end and no moving parts to wear. Almost all engines were converted to the banjo oiler and the original hole in the end was either plugged or fitted with a drip feed lubricator.

The crank pin was always seen as a highly stressed bearing and a hot crank pin is the most common problem on an engine, usually because of a lubricating fault or human error. The funny thing is that Loco practice was totally different. Johnny Pickles was once looking at a loco and said to Newton that it was a puzzle how they got away with an oil pocket in the rod end bunged up with a cork while it was sprayed with muck and grit from the track bed while mill engines had constant feed and still got into trouble. I think that part of the problem is that a crak pin bearing on a mill engine has a far bigger sweep than on a loco but I don't fully understand why this should make such a difference. What I am sure of is that a well-fitted crank pin that's getting one drop of oil every six revolutions is safe and that's all that interested me when I was running them. Mind you, like all engineers, I tended to over-lubricate, it's an occupational disease so the drip feed lubricator was belt and braces and nowt wrong with that!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 07:13
Here's Newton talking about the Wellhouse engine, from 78/AG/01.

R-It were a Burnley Ironworks, a pair of tandems.  We’d had a new engine at one side, it were put in in 1926, one side were modern and one side were corliss valves on the high pressure but a slide valve on the low.  Anyhow, this afternoon, usual time, three o’clock and it were time to fill your crank pin lubricators with grease.  You screwed them off and you had a grease tub and a spoon.  Fill the lubricator, like butter, pat it on till it were full and then wound it back on with your hands, then you put your worm drive in which were a click and then you put your catch down which were worked with a ratchet to drive the grease through.  I did the new side and went round to do the other side.  All force of habit.  I went down into the boiler house or else out into the yard and I thought That engine’s running slow.  So I dash back upstairs and I had the New Side crank pin stinking red hot, not warm, stinking red hot, it were fizzling like a chip shop.  So I stopped the engine and thought I’m in trouble now.  I thought well, I’ve watched the others and what they generally do is get a hose pipe and couple it on to a tap and lucky enough there was already some hose pipe coupled on a tap next to the main bearing.  So I got one of them squirting away on to it and it was sizzling and cracking and banging and I was scared.  In a minute or two I hear the engine hose door open at the bottom of the steps and footsteps came up towards the crankpin from the bottom.  I’m frigging away squirting away and I look round and see this hard hat come above the railings [Johnny always wore a bowler hat], I thought hello, me father’s here, I’ll get a bit of help now.  He just looked round and said what’s up?  I said I’ve a crank pin hot.  Oh it is hot and all he said.  I said It’s bleeding hot!  Ah well he said, tha’s getten thiself into trouble, tha mun get thiself out of it.  And that was all the help I got off Johnny.  Well I thought, I’m in a right mess now aren’t I!  I’d 200 weavers or more out in the yard waiting of the engine starting.  But in a minute or two there’s another chap comes upstairs, it were Leonard Parkinson, I could hear him coming.  Now then Newton, what’s to do?  It’s crank pin hot Leonard.  Well then, let’s slack it back a bit and get going.

Who was Leonard?

R-Leonard Parkinson were our foreman fitter after Stanley Fisher left.  He were a nice chap were Leonard.

That was one of your own men?

R-Yes, one of us own men, he’d worked for me father since 1914.

Do you think Johnny had sent him across?

R-Of course he’d sent him, aye of course he’d sent him Stanley, he wouldn’t leave me like that with the blinking mill stopped.  So we found some spanners and Len slackened it back about…

How old were you then Newton?

R-Sixteen.

And the engine stopped and all the weavers out in the yard…

R-The engine stopped and all the weavers out in the yard shouting to know whether we were stopped for the week.  They loved to be stopped for the week.

I know the feeling well.  [SG was engineer at Bancroft in 1978]

R-Well anyway, it’s a rotten feeling.  We slackened it back a bit and then Len said “keep that water going Newton.”  He stood over it while I got going, he were no engine driver, he could work on them.  So I got started up and he stood over the crank pin and we worked through till closing.

What had actually caused it Newton?

R-Wait a minute, we ran through while half past five and then Leonard says we’d better come back tonight and we’ll take those brasses out and refit them.  So we came back after tea and we refitted the brasses.  Len said he’d be in at seven o’clock in the morning.  I started up at seven o’clock the morning after and it were stone cold, it were all right, we was on us way.  I’d had me breakfast, I’d stopped from half past eight while nine and I’d got going again, I was stood over that crank pin, I never left it you know besides doing me other work.  Me father landed in and said Now then Newton, what happened yesterday?  I said I didn’t know.  He asked whether I’d left the catch out.  I said I hadn’t, I knew I’d put it back in and the only thing I could think, they were big heavy catches, was that I’d flipped it over with me finger and it had hit the top of a ratchet wheel tooth, they were brass wheels about six inches in diameter, and it bounced off the corner of a tooth, acting as a spring.  You know how a ratchet wheel goes to a feather edge, it must have hit the feather edge and bounced back and that’s all I could think.  I knew jolly well I’d put it back in.  Johnny told me to lift it out and try it now.  I did it and it bounced right out and dropped over again out of drive.  That’s it says me dad, we’ll cure that this weekend.  He got out his ruler and put his hat to the back of his head and measured the wheel.  Just count the teeth, I don’t know how many there were, about 57 or 60 it doesn’t matter and off he went, a little pencil out and his book and he drew a catch and a wheel and off he went.  We’ll remedy this at the weekend.  On Saturday morning, down comes Dennis [Pickles] at half past nine to stop with me.  Newton, get your breakfast and then come back.  He were a good turner were Dennis, he were no relation, he were a lad that me father had started as an apprentice straight from school.  He says we’re going to alter this, you’ll have no more bother with these catches.  What they’d done they’d made two new catches, the wheels were half an inch wide and they’d made two catches a quarter of an inch wide, one were shorter by half a tooth pitch.  Now when you filled your lubricator you put them both back and when you tripped them in you put them both in and if one caught the edge of a tooth the other one didn’t.

So you..

R-We never had any moiré trouble with them up to taking them off and fitting oilers.

(300)

Those greasers would feed up a pipe that comes right up the crank…

R-Up a pipe straight into the crank pin.

So that greaser was up at the crank pin end?

R-Just to the crank pin.

The only greasers I’ve ever seen were the one that fed up a pipe along the connecting rod.

R-Roberts always put them on, Calf Hall had them on and they’d a big central pillar with the lubricator on you know.  And what happened at Calf Hall one day, It got hold did that quadrant pipe.  Noel went to lubricate it and it seized one Monday morning.  It picked the lubricator up and threw it round.  Edwin rang up and said you’d better come down here, there’s a hole in the roof!  It had broken the pillar off at the bottom, it would be about four and a half inches in diameter, a cast iron pillar, and the engine picked it up, whizzed it and threw it through the roof of the engine house.

So there’d be a big modification?

R-We bored em out and put em on oil.  The original greasers went up the outside, up the connecting rod, not through a hole in the crank pin.

That’s it, yes.

R-They used to pipe up the grease from the cross-head to the crank pin but if the cross head got a bit slack it got all the fat and the crank, the poor old crank didn’t get anything.

I think I’ve heard you say it was a bit of a mess fitting the pipes over the swelling in the connecting rod.

R-Oh it were, oh Christ it were on a Roberts engine.  Well we did away with them at Calf Hall, we bored the crank pins and fitted oilers.  At Wellhouse, things got better after that, I were in about six or seven weeks on me own there.  Then I went back to me work with me father.    


Stanley Challenger Graham




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jgb7573
New Member


44 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 12:56
Thanks Stanley. Very interesting. I will make sure I get my crank pins and wrist pins in the right place!

Your point about locomotive crank pins is intriguing. I would have thought the power available at the crank pin was a lot less for a locomotive, at least the cylinders were a lot smaller. Also I would have thought a loco was a whole lot less rigid (wheels are sprung and axles can tilt to take up unevenness in the track and so on). Food for thought!


JohnB,

Found that horn - gorn! Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2008 : 17:46
Loco crank pins took just as much power as most mill engines and were a lot smaller. You're right about flexibility. Mt dad was on refurbishing Baldwin locos at Armstong's in Trafford Park after the Great War and he said that when they did the first one the foreman insisted that all the coupling rod bearings should be well fitted and when they fired it up and put it round a bend in the track it stopped, all the bearings siezed. They had to pull them down and give them a lot of slack. That's why the old 0-8-0 locos used to clank along when they were on straight track. I can hear them now.......


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 01/01/2009 : 01:33
I thought this would be a good place to flag up my latest book. BANCROFT. THE STORY OF A PENNINE WEAVING SHED. 275 pages, lots of pics. If you like steam and sheds this is a goodie. To get one, go to lulu.com>buy>search for Bancroft and make an old man happy. If you've ever wondered how a mill worked this is right up your street.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 28/06/2009 : 10:19
A heads up for you. If you are interested in the mills and the engines I have published 'Steam Engine Research Resources' on Lulu.com this morning. No pictures, just long boring lists of mills and engines that I have found essential in my research. Not for everyone but it has all sorts of esoteric information in it that you can't get anywhere else.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 06/07/2009 : 10:06
You might have heard the news about the steam-powered pumps at Crofton being used to keep the lock working on the Kennet & Avon canal after the electric pumps failed. The BBC story (dated 4th July 2009) is at this web page and it also has a short video showing the beam engine working.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/8134285.stm

The BBC story text is below but go to the site if you want the video.

`Historic steam pumps 'save' canal'

Two historic steam pumps, built in the 1800s, are being fired up to save a canal in Wiltshire from running dry after modern electric pumps failed. British Waterways asked Kennet and Avon Canal Trust volunteers, who run the pumping station at Crofton near Marlborough, to save the lock. Three tonnes of coal will be used, over two days, to fire up the Georgian beam engine pumps - built in 1812 and 1843. The canal has been closed between Crofton Crossing and Wootton Rivers. The canal is owned and operated by British Waterways. The failure of the electric pump meant that no water could be pumped back up to the highest point of the canal, near Crofton. British Waterways decided to close the canal because if boats used the lock system to get up the hill the canal would quickly run dry. Pam Holt, from Cambridge and currently on a long boat holiday on the canal, described what happened when she arrived at the lock on Friday. She said: "We arrived at the lock yesterday and were told it had closed because one of the pumps had 'blown up'. "It has been a wonderful thing to see the team from the museum using the old pumps for the thing they were intended for and actually doing it for real and not just for show." Crofton Pumping Station was opened in 1810 and fell into disrepair in 1959. It is now a museum exhibit run by the volunteers.  

Edited by - Tizer on 06/07/2009 10:07:39


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 06/07/2009 : 10:56
Lovely. and how enterprising of BW to use their heads.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
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