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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  11/01/2009  :  06:04
New Year, new topic. If you want to see the old one do a forum search for same title but 2008.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 06/06/2009 : 16:07
I noted the fascist vote as well Panny. Worrying that there are enough people out there with no notion of what they are voting for. I don't know about compulsory voting but I do think that there should be a concerted attempt to educate yhe voters. Something like them having to sign up to Human Rights before they are allowed to stand, and I mean a signed declaration with teeth, proper penalties if it was broken. They have been allowed to get away with weasel words for too long.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 06/06/2009 : 23:56
Interesting is it not then, that some of "the people out there" with no notion of what they are voting for are in fact Bank Managers, Dentists, Solicitors, Doctors ,Vets and Businessmen and Women, and ordinary people, and not just skinheads. As for human rights, we all have rights. Lets not please go Orwell. "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 07:45
'some of "the people out there" with no notion of what they are voting for are in fact Bank Managers, Dentists, Solicitors, Doctors ,Vets and Businessmen and Women'. Social status or education has no bearing on political illiteracy which is what rabid fascism is. Mosely, leader of the Blackshirts in the 1930s came from a family high enough in the social scale to have Mosely Street in Manchester named after them. The far right of the Tory party was almost exclusively upper class.

'Lets not please go Orwell. "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".'  Orwell was quite right, he was illustrating the attitude of all totalitarian regimes. Hitler certainly believed it, that's why he was an anti-Semite. Mussolinis certainly thought that the Ethiopians were an inferior race. Franco believed that anyone who opposed him was an inferior being. Racism is based entirely on the belief that difference in race equals inferiority.

This differentiation between the value of human lives based on social or racial characteristics is the basis of all discrimination.  It leaves aside the fact that all children are born equal, it is the disparity between wealth, location and opportunity which produces the people who cause us so much trouble. Col. Tim Collins made the point last night when asked whether a modern society could producesoldiers with the same dedication and courage as the majority of those who participated in the Normandy invasion. He said without a doubt yes and gave the example of the Irish Regiment he served in where the majority of the lads under him came from deprived backgrounds in the slums of Belfast. The same could be said about the Scottish and English Regiments who traditionally recruited amongst the disadvantaged and under-employed.

The only sound basis for a successful political party is inclusivity. As soon as discrimination against 'difference' of any sort is used to decide membership or worth the movement is bound to fail.It's noticeable that original Communism grew so fast because it  was totally inclusive, many historians have compared it to the Christian movement but as it grew it created its own internal divisions and targeted 'enemies' inside society and it was the clash between this internal hatred and the increasing awareness of western democracy that finally toppled the Communism of Stalin et al. In many ways they began to operate just like a Fascist party, basing social policies on repression and the creation of elite groups.

No, all these groups operated on a basis of discrimination and extremism and the BNP is no different. All that has changed from the NF is that they have become more clever and devious. Their core ethic is still rotten and I want no part of it.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 08:20
I'm waiting with interest for the results of the EU elections.......  Next week could be interesting. The interesting thing is that Europe-wide the pollsters are forecasting a below average turn-out. Dangerous...


Stanley Challenger Graham




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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 09:02
"I want no part of it"  Nor do I, I am merely making the point that however dangerous it may be, these people still have the right to make up their own minds, and of course the opposite end of the political spectrum could be just as dangerous. No doubt at all that the coming week will be interesting,and from all points of view.


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 11:12
"It's a sad day for us old Labour supporters because in 1997 we had a wonderful opportunity to address the basic faults in our system of government."

I wonder how different it might have been if John Smith had been genetically less disposed to heart disease and had taken more care with his diet and drink?


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 06:29
Spot on! I have often asked myself the same question. I haven't got the full picture of the election results yet but my predictions of three weeks ago look pretty well on track. I listen to Labour apologists trying to support Brown and still talking about having a chance in the 2010 GE and wonder which planet they are on. I said when Blair went that we should have had a general election to secure a mandate and with hindsight it's a pity we hadn't enough fire in the PLP to have had a proper leadership election. A good example of what happens when accepted parliamentary procedures are ditched and sofa government takes over. I can't help harking back to Caroline Flint and the accusation of government by inner circle. Time we got back to boring old Cabinet government or else a totally new system backed by a proper written constitution with inbuilt checks and balances.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 06:46
Just heard the crude breakdown of the UK EU election results. Labour at 16% behind Ukip. Worst election result for socialism for 100 years. I don't know what the backbenchers will do but it may well be that they will be so angry that they will decide that it can't get any worse than this and decide to punish the leadership. In purely practical terms the only sensible thing to do is a mass defection to Lib Dem by the good guys who are left and start a radical clear-out of government. It won't happen but it would be an interesting manoeuvre which I think would succeed in shaking our institutions to the core and in the end that is what is needed.

As for the BNP having two MEPs. Funnily enough I am not too worried about this as I suspect that exposed to proper political debate they will be exposed for what they are. Of course I could be wrong....


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 06:47
PS. I have just realised that part of the package offered to Alan Sugar is a seat in the Lords.....  Words fail me.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 08:42
I am going to stop thinking about depressing thigs and go to have my eyes tested by Uzma, the best optician in the world. However, I've just mailed me US constituency.....

Morning all. In case you colonial people hadn't realised we now know the true scale of the shift in politics in the UK. Labour's share of the vote was 16% beaten by the Tories and UKIP. The liberals were I think only one point behind Labour. The least said about the BNP the better, all I can hope for is that the cold light of political debate will show them up for what they are. A party founded on concealment of Fascism surely cannot succeed.

Fisrt thing to say is that I am not suicidal! I remember commiserating with young Steve 30 years ago and saying that the landslide Tory victory would eventually be reversed as the normal levelling influence of our system kicked in. It did of course and we only had to wait twenty years!

Another point is that I don't think this is a truly representative vote, there is too much political turbulence at the moment especially in the PLP as the tribes war with each other instead of getting behind sensible and constitutional moves to sort the system out. They had the opportunity when Blair resigned but chickened out. That was the time for a proper leadership contest and a general election to secure a mandate. Instead we got a cosy arrangement between the Blair and Brown factions on the sofa which has turned out to be a disaster.

Of course there is the argument that the collapse of the Labour vote is a direct re-run with the Tory defeat in 1997 and it's true that there are some striking parallels but also some significant differences. One thing about the Tories in their favour was that they took power on a Conservative Manifesto, not a Labour one. New Labour ditched traditional socialism and went for the Shire vote which was a brilliant electoral ploy but a very bad basis for government under a Labour banner. Unfortunately the Blair/Mandelson/Brown machine forgot that once elected they should start governing instead of carrying on as before. I have this dream of how things might have been different under John Smith.

All useless speculation now of course. It remains to be seen what the PLP will do. Their options are very limited I'm afraid and if the government struggles on until 2010 the old socialist core will vanish and there will be no revival of the Labour Party we once knew founded on a solid working class base in smokestack industry and non-conformist religion  because they have  gone as well. Forgetting tribal politics (as if that could happen) the practical thing to do is what Shirley Williams et al tried all those years ago. Join with the Liberals and inject some radical thought into the Nice Party. Eventually I think that is what will happen and I'm all for it.

But these are the ramblings of an old and disappointed man and probably have no relevance to a modern world. The only thing I am absolutely certain of is that we need a Parliament with enough blance in opposing parties to allow proper opposition and debate on the floor of the House. If there had been such a modifying influence over the last eleven years we might not have been in the mess we are now. I await with interest what the Westminster Village will do next to cock-up the UK and hope that whatever they do we finish up with a more democratic system of government. The biggest mistake the next administration could make is to continue with the corrosive quasi-presidential system which grew under Thatcher, was brought to perfection by Blair with his ridiculous majoruty (and I said so at the time...) which has none of the checks and balances it would be subject to under a written constitution. Let's try going back to old-fashioned democratic governance under a proper Cabinet System.

There is just one fly in the ointment for the Tories of course. They will inherit the worst financial mess this country has ever faced and one which will be with us for at least thirty years. Add to that the future shock of climate change, energy prices and the natural shocks that occur anyway (events dear boy) and it is going to be a rough ride.

From the bunker, Stanley.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 09/06/2009 : 13:34
Landline going down for 24 hours. Turned out there were two faults, one an old one of long standing. No wonder I was asking people to speak up on the phone....


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 09/06/2009 : 20:02
We were speculating earlier on this page about how things might have turned out very different had Labour leader John Smtih not died so young. This evening on Radio 4's Front Row programme there was a discussion about writing on history with Antonia Fraser and Margaret MacMillan. They too raised the question about John Smith and one of them said the other such event in Labour's history was the death of Hugh Gaitskell.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 05:59
We're not the only ones who are thinking then....

I feel like unilateral action this morning. (Worrying!)

Like many of you who take notice I've noted the comments of members who feel this topic has got too heavy. It would be a pity if we shut some members out so I'm going to change the title and start another WGYA but distinguish between the two so there is no chance of locking anyone out. If anybody strongly objects let me know and I'll change them again but I have an idea this might help the problem.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 06:13
I was watching Ian Hislop's programme 'Changing of the Bard' and it struck me that Tennyson's Christmas Poem 'Ring out wild bells' should be sung in Parliament every day!

Ring out the old, ring in the new,
Ring, happy bells, across the snow:
The year is going, let him go;
Ring out the false, ring in the true.

Ring out the grief that saps the mind,
For those that here we see no more,
Ring out the feud of rich and poor,
Ring in redress to all mankind.

Ring out a slowly dying cause,
And ancient forms of party strife;
Ring in the nobler modes of life,
With sweeter manners, purer laws.

Ring out the want, the care the sin,
The faithless coldness of the times;
Ring out, ring out my mournful rhymes,
But ring the fuller minstrel in.



Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 11:24
It's becoming more and more apparent that the big winner in power holding terms in the last few weeks is Lord Mandelson. I heard a reference to the Mandelson Raj this morning.

Between his dependence on Mandy and the need to appease the rebels in the party, how much power does Godron actually have? If he starts his campaign on reform today with more value promises and promises to 'consult' and set up enquiries he's scuppered.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
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