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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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panbiker
Senior Member


2300 Posts
Posted - 10/04/2011 : 20:34
Problem with AV is that it is likely to cause even more apathy with politics than that which already exists. A lot of people can't be bothered to turn out and put a single cross on a ballot paper let alone rank all the candidates in order of preference. Another problem with AV is that you can end up with a winner who is a total outsider at the start of the election but gains votes off everyone elses back if they each just fall short of the 50% requirement.

Far better to engage and educate the electorate to get involved with the existing system. If nescessary introduce compulsory voting with the addition of an abstain box on the ballot and fine the ones that don't turn out. A fixed penalty of say £100 for non compliance. It would be easy enough to administer as it would only require extracting the names from the marked up registers. Feed all these into a database and deduct the penalty at source (via tax or docking benefit) with a covering letter to advise them to vote next time. Revenues earned from the non voters could be used to directly offset the cost of the election for the taxpayers that do vote and foot the bill.

This strategy has worked in other countries and once people get used to voting the increased turnout tends to be maintained as the norm.


Ian Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 06:09
British retail consortium reports biggest drop in High Street spending they have seen for ? years. (I missed the figure, was it 16?) Not good news, are the cuts starting to have an effect on Domestic spending?

IMF reports doubts about the pace of global recovery largely due to raw material and energy prices.

Straws in the wind I know but I've seen more cheerful news. Plan 'B'?

Ian, I hear what you're saying but I hate compulsion. How about an incentive for everyone who votes?


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2300 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 09:21
The incentive is that we may get a truly democraticaly elected government with a proper mandate from the people. That should be incentive enough but if you insist, I would have no problem with a sweetie jar by the ballot box on your way out.


Ian Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 09:25
Ian, if you make voting compulsory might you end up with someone being elected largely because they are supported by all those who don't like voting? E.g. Someone who pledged to make it non-compulsory.


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panbiker
Senior Member


2300 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 10:04
I think it is much better to have the opinion af many than just a few. Current low turnouts are not healthy regardless of which voting system is employed. First Past the Post is the most direct way of electing someone that the majority want. No messing about with 2nd and 3rd hand votes cast in someone elses favour. That can't be right.

We have to get the turnout up one way or the other. I did elude to engaging and educating the electorate as a first step. Maybe it should be part of the curriculum so that kids are taught that in a democratic society it is the norm to have a voice and part of this is to stand up and be counted from time to time. There is a Wiki overview of Compulsory Voting here.

A fine for not voting is the easiest and probably most effective sanction that could be applied. Australia introduced it as a direct result of low turn outs at Federal Elections, the turnout was just shy of 60% and considerd low. If we got that sort of turnout here the pundits would be jumping through hoops and applauding it. 60% is abismal. 40 odd percent that is more the norm here is a joke. Something needs to be done before considering other voting mechanisms.

Australia has been using it since 1924 and there have been occasional bills to scrap it, all have failed. It is considered a duty to vote and is accepted as such.

Perhaps I have these views because I am aware of the struggles that had to be born by thousands of our predessesors in countless trade and labour organisations to get us the vote in the first place. Don't forget that it is comparatively recent history that women ceased to be disenfranchised in this country. The right to vote has been hard won, we should not allow it to be wasted.

 

 

Edited by - panbiker on 12/04/2011 10:07:08


Ian Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 18:42
I thought we had AV already !!!
If you like Labour vote Labour, if you don't and want an Alternative Just vote Conservative, if you don't like either vote for another Alternative the Liberals. If you don't like any of the Three, Vote Green, or BNP or Independant. How many Alternatives do Voters need. First time the BNP get in someone will call for a first past the post system.
Time for a General Election ?? bet the Liberals bring down the Goverment at the First Opportunity if we are daft enough to vote for AV.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 23:30


quote:
frankwilk wrote:
I thought we had AV already !!!
...and you know what Thought did.......eh.

In our house it was......."followed a muck cart and thought it was a wedding".......


BRADDERS BLUESINGER Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 13/04/2011 : 04:03
Nowt wrong with bringing a government down, it just shows people don't want them. 65% of voters at last election didn't want Tories anywhere near power.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 13/04/2011 : 08:10
Careful what you wish for Stanley, it would be interesting to see what people would vote for now it has been clearly (well almost) listed of what is required, to sort out the mess left by the last lost. Godron has admitted he was wrong on the Banks and both Eds sat alongside Godron, advising !!!!

Still can't get away from the fact people have alternatives already.

 ps Bradders  I won't respond  to your pathetic little swipe



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 13/04/2011 : 09:31
Listened to news about Chinese dissidents and then about Libya. It makes me wonder...if the Chinese people rose against their leaders who then started shooting them in the streets what would the western nations do? Especially if those Chinese people asked for help from the West and we were watching them on TV being shot and bombed by their leaders and army and reading their pleas on the Internet? By analogy with Libya we would send in the bombers and fighter planes but it might not be quite so easy (it's proving to be not quite so easy in Libya too).


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Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 13/04/2011 : 10:27
It is First Past The Post or full blown PR that would deliver the possibility of the BNP, or hard left party, or Cap'n Tom's Pirate Party, getting representation in Parliament and not AV.  This is because I've yet to meet a lukewarm fascist or Trotskyite.  And also why only the BNP support FPTP of the parties declared.  Well, apart from the Tories.

 
If you like lazy MPs; 2-party rule; political gerrymandering; voting for those you judge the 'least worse', as opposed to 'best', or voting 'against' someone as opposed to 'for' someone else; wasted votes and disenfranchisement in 'safe seats' then by all means vote against AV.  If you don't, then vote for the 'pathetic compromise' of AV as a step towards full PR.

 
If we take at face value the results of the last election (and I'm usually loathe to take one incident as illustrative of a trend), it could be argued a shift is developing in this country whereby 'two-party' rule is ending.  In the face of an economy (global in large part, and national) on its knees due to policy, regulatory and corporate failure; a loathed where he was not ridiculed PM heading a party widely discreditied and in power for 13 years, the electorate decided to give no party a majority, indeed denied the main opposition the biggest open goal in recent years.  Truly this was an election of losers.

 
Now if this is a shift, then FPTP is surely increasingly untenable.  There is a reason why, when helping developing counties or those emerging from dictatorship establish democracy, FPTP is never used.  It's inability to reflect the plurality of opinions and the consequent feeling of being disenfranchised amongst those on the 'wrong side' prior to stability, can cause serious upset (if not disorder) and distrust with the whole thing.

 
Richard Broughton 



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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 13/04/2011 : 10:30
Bruff where is this topic you started that is named something like RAOB and Moh has recenly posted pictures in?

Edited by - belle on 13/04/2011 10:32:38 AM


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2300 Posts
Posted - 13/04/2011 : 10:40
Belle, do you mean this one?

Buff Trip Early 1950's


Ian Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 13/04/2011 : 10:44
Thanks Panny, I found it just after I had posted on here...doh!


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2300 Posts
Posted - 13/04/2011 : 10:57
I was grabbed last night by the campagn for a yes to AV electoral broadcast. This mainly consisted of what I think were supposed to be representatives of the electorate shouting through megaphones at toff like individuals telling them to listen. AV was put forward as a cure all to what the media have tried to portray all MP's as completely inept, scheming, self centred individuals who are all in it for what they can get.

Now I know that there are folk on here that will probably say that that is an accurate description, however I think most right minded individuals will accept that it is only the minority that have abused the system and most MP's try to do the job to the best of their abilty.

AV will not change the calibre of people standing for election, it is simply a different mechanism and regardless of which system we used to elect our representatives, they can still turn out to be wolves in sheeps clothing and complete wasters if they have a mind to be so.

 

Edited by - panbiker on 13/04/2011 11:06:57


Ian Go to Top of Page
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