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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  28/04/2011  :  07:37
Political comment is a high risk activity on the site these days so I thought I'd try again to give those who are interested in politics a safe haven!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 08/06/2011 : 22:41
Richard I can't believe you moved from London to Hoylake and thought it may be better ,cheaper maybe better not.
 I can't comment on the NHS changes BUT I do believe it needs change or it will run out of money, we just can't afford it in it's present clothes.
I disagree it is the not the well off having 2+ children.
But the brighter well off ones  who stop at 2  my son has 2 and got the chop after the second, like I did !!! We have 2 not 2+
As for 100 grand Doctors,  should Doctors not be a little more caring for the people who have to pay for their education ??How about 10 Xs the lowest paid NHS worker as the norm ?



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 07:01
The first image that comes to mind is a small depression over Aberdeen radiating gloom and doom. Everythings buggered, we are all doomed.

Second thing that came to mind was ' A Modest Proposal For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland from Being A burden to Their Parents or Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to The Public. By Jonathan Swift (1729)'  http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

(Before your eyebrows rise too high, read and understand what Swift was saying.)

Of course there are no easy solutions. This doesn't mean we should ditch basic economics, evidence and compassion. The small solutions which alleviate as far as possible the problems we have come from rational debate, the use of technology and sound evidence. Not blanket recrimination, draconian policies and maintenance of the status quo for those who are sitting pretty. These are the policies that are being pursued at the moment, cut wages and costs, ration energy by price and protect the financial system that has brought us to this point.  There are good people out there doing their best under difficult circumstances, our first priority should be to support them. That wouldn't be a bad start.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 08:17
Tony Blair on R4 advising us on the politics of the Middle East. You couldn't make it up.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 13:10
''How about 10 Xs the lowest paid NHS worker as the norm ?''

 
Yes, that's fine by me.  The Dr's would be on quite a bit more than a 100 grand though....

 
Of course, I'm making the enormous assumption that your 'lowest paid worker' is a full-time equivalent on the minimum wage.  After all, there will be some in the NHS on two or three grand a year working part-time.  Twenty to thirty grand a year (or less) would not in my view be fair reward for a Dr today (and you'd never see the 50 grand tuition fee bill paid back if they were........).

 
''should Doctors not be a little more caring for the people who have to pay for their education ??'

 
I suspect this statement comes from either having, or hearing about, a bad experience (or is simply a heroic assumption).  And then, as usual, making the quantum leap to tarring all Dr's with the same brush.  This is your approach to all public servants.  Save for one exception.  Our 'brave lads and lasses', where you are strangely silent on the well-documented abuses of some these past years.  I wager you would defend to the hilt servicemen and women against those who wish to make the same (daft) quantum leap to tarring them all an ill-disciplined rabble.

 
Richard Broughton



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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 07:18
Richard, thanks for that, I hadn't taken the trouble to analyse the statements.

I've been working hard at my reading of late in the search for  reliable evidence on spending policies and the intellectual positions that produce them. Of course I haven't found 'the solution' but I have found some good evidence that flies in the face of many popular perceptions, not least in the heads of government policy makers. Two things stand out a mile, we have what is probably the best and most efficient Civil Service in the world (Read biogs of Bevan and Bevin and see what their relations with the CS were. Mutual admiration once they got the measure of each other.) Then look closely at the NHS. Universally admired as the most comprehensive and cheapest medical system in the world. Add to this the immense benefit it gives in security of mind and the lessening of pressures in everyday lifeand you have something we should be praising and supporting, not continually sniping at and attempting to 'reform', ie, make cheaper and open to profit taking, mutually exclusive goals without reducing quality of care and service.

'Our brave lads and lassies'. I admire you for grasping that nettle. There are certain shibboleths in society still which we question at our peril. In my mind it comes under the heading of 'wrapping yourself in the flag'. Unquestioning support of the days of Empire and Thatcher stood on the doorstep of No. 10 gushing about 'our brave lads'. Of course there is bravery there but there is also common sense. I liked the Army and had a good experience but I never got carried away by the ethos. We spent more time laughing at the 'intelligence officers' who tried to brainwash us into thinking the Russian Army was stupid, uneducated and staffed mainly by Mongols in the lower ranks who washed fish in toilet bowls than thinking of ourselves as 'brave lads'.

No, every time I hear that phrase my crap detector starts to whine and I think of Deepcut, shooting poor lads on the Western Front in WW1 because they weren't 'brave' enough and the shameful way we treated conscientous objectors, probably the 'bravest' of the lot because they stood up against what they saw as a corrupt system.  Like all broad-brush statements it ignores the realities in order to save the bother of analysis. The bottom line that worries me is that in order to persuade people to go out and kill other people you have to completely reverse the teaching of normal society. I always remember the padre who lectured us in training telling us that it was OK to murder the enemy, just think of them as raping your mother! (I kid you not, it actually happened!)  God and the church were on our side! Problem was that the other side probably believed the same thing, they certainly thought they were right.

I'm rambling aren't I. Just shows how powerful statements like this are. Very difficult to argue against them but deep down in our hearts we know that there is something very suspicious about them. Complicated and very worrying.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 07:58
Funny i was thinking along the same lines, as you say somethings dare not be spoken of, but as a pacifist I do not share the view that it is better to spend money on war than on health....in fact put like that it seems common sense to me.


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 10:30
Belle, problem is that if you grasp the nettle and voice disquiet about these things it's like arguing against motherhood and apple pie. When I was at school we were brainwashed into believing the Empire was God's gift to the world and they made us sing 'The British Grenadiers' and Hearts of Oak' every morning. 'Jolly Tars' and the 'Thin Red Line'. It took me a long time and a lot of help from caring tutors but I eventually started to sort out the truth. I'm still working on it! I always remember a cartoon that was published in America after the Civil War. It showed a soldier leaning on a reversed rifle and surveying a battlefield littered with the dead. The caption was 'Damned if I ever fight for a country again!' Says it all really.

Another thing that came to mind was the large number of voluteers that went to Spain in the Civil War to fight against fascism. (Not to be confused with the Communists who had an entirely different agenda)  When they came back many of them became consciencious  objectors. They had seen the face of modern war and decided they wanted no part in it. Branded cowards they were probably the bravest of the lot.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 13:07
Being a mercenary is an option, being a pacifist is an option, being a regular service person is also an option, and like it or not, a necessary part of modern society. The latter are not bad people, in fact many are more reliable and conscientious than their civilian counterparts, and they still have a valuable part to play in the affairs of this country. God forbid they should ever be needed to use their skills at home, but be sure of this, they will have much support.


thomo Go to Top of Page
HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 14:34
Stanley I have been on nvacation for 6 weeks, just got back home and spent some time reviewing some of the topics.  Nothing has changed, my first thought was that Frank plays the "straight man " for you, he makes a comment and the posse under leadership of the sheriff ride off after him.  I do not see any indication od a "depression over Aberdeen", but I do see a DARK cloud of DOOM and GLOOM over Barlick.  My travels over the past weeks have shown me people working harder to make a living, but in a vibrant country.  I have not seen you be positive about anything except your view of history and your books.  Try to lighten up a little and enjoy life before it passes you by.  Run for leader of the labour party ( you do have all the answers after all).  Finally when you do not agree with Frank stick to your opinions on the topic without attempts at ridicule of Frank and efforts to recruit suppoprters of your views.

 

 


HERB


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 14:59
Nice that Frank has someone in his corner Herb, and interesting to see your take on things..I would hate to think you considered me as part of a posse, I have never run with the herd in all my life and I don't intend to start now. I came on here about 6 years ago, it was fairly obvious then that as Doc and Stanley had set up the site (someone correct me if I'm wrong) as a kind of expansion to his piece in the local paper those contributing their point of view would be of similar interests and opinions. Perhaps some coming on later have mistaken the nature of the site, and inadvertantly ruffled feathers.


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 15:33
I too think this is a vibrant country.  I think it is packed with folk from all walks of life, from all corners of the globe, in all professions and roles, who get along absolutely fine.  Do the best for their families, their friends and neighbours and their communivities.  Are civil and polite, full of humour, and with a ready smile.  This is my country.

 
What my country is not is 'broken'.  What it is not is full of scroungers and layabouts.  It is not full of dossers and pen-pushers, and it is not full of hoodies and villains.  And we are certainly not bankrupt 

 
Sadly, the political narrative is that it is of all of these things.  We are in danger of turning in on ourselves, and against ourselves.  Scapegoats are around every corner at whom we are encouraged to point and sneer at, backed by a morally bankrupt, flip-flopping press who inisist on providing their daily diet of fear (and hate).  We are not exposed to the vast good that exists, rather the isolated bad as symtomatic of the whole

 
This is why we are heading for the plughole and it annoys the heck out of me.  What problems there are in this country and they are there, are not best served by this narrative

 
Richard Broughton



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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 15:51
Well said!


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 16:15
And I shall carry on trying to get across to our local hoodies etc, that their poor behaviour will not be tolerated, a job made far more difficult as some of them are non EU imigrants who think they are distanced from the Law by some kind of right. It is plain that some of the older ones are "dealing" and the results are frightening when you see at close quarters the effect it has on very young kids who are normally well behaved. I could go on at length about the undercover trade that manifests itself in some communities, for instance Takeaways that sell that something extra! but what the hell, i'm just an ordinary bloke, why should I care, or is that what you want to hear.


thomo Go to Top of Page
Another
Traycle Mine Overseer


6250 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 16:47
Herb, you and frank should start of your own on line branch of the Monday Club as your shared perspectives are similar to theirs and your spins on facts fall very much in line. Looking at other recent posts you might recruit the odd supporter.

I recall not that long ago you were very supportive of another member who you counselled not to espouse views that might upset Stanley and others as he would would be kicked as others had from the site. You were wrong about that as you could not name anyone who had been kicked from the site for those reasons,  and you are wrong about  your latest theory  of a "posse".

I'm sure that if you and frank stopped ridiculing (in your case) and attacking others directly in his case then the site like our country, would be a better place.

As on a number of occasions recently, having written this I debated whether to post it.  For one thing I know  that the Monday Club will just dismiss this as another demented socialist and for another  I'm sick of all the bickering on the site and want to tell a number of you to go away and leave the rest of us to it.  I can't do that  so  I'm going into a self imposed exile before I start to say things that I really regret.


Nolic


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 16:55
Thomo how we see the young has a lot to do with the filters we use. I have interviewed on the streets and aproached goths, with black lips and eye make up, pierced lips and eybrows, and spiked dog collars round their necks and found them to be charming, home loving types that spend the weekends babysitting, some even go to church. i have worked with "hoodies" and "bro's" and had lots of meaningful conversation and chat, and just this week I was taking to a young person who has been on the streets, thrown out  for getting involved with the stuff you are talking about, the person in question is approachable, funny, sorry, and eager to get on with their lives. In the end it does all come down to whether you see other's as a threat or not.."there but for the grace of God go I" is the motto i like to live by.


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