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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  11/01/2009  :  06:04
New Year, new topic. If you want to see the old one do a forum search for same title but 2008.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 30/01/2009 : 19:17
exactly, point made!


HERB


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2009 : 06:19
Quite Tiz and what makes it even worse is the spurious 'war on terror' invented first  by Dubya in an attempt to try to convince America that they were under attack. Once established it freed him to throw money at the 'threat' and bring in anti-libertarian legislation that led to the use of torture, rendition flights, and wholesale loss of privacy in electronic communications. It spread here when Blair and Co realised that it was a defence against the disgraceful and totally false matter of the 45 minutes to Armagedon 'Weapons of mass destruction'. What they all failed to recognise was that Britain made modern Iraq out of the three ancient kingdoms of Mesopotamia using aerial bombing, machine gunning, poison gas and installing an arbitrary monarch. The Seven Sisters systematically plundered the Middle East with very little regard for the arabs. When things started to go pear-chaped and it looked as though Russia was about to reach its long term goal of controlling Afghanistan and opening up a land corridor to the Far east the US stepped in and supported the Taliban, financed Saddam Hussein and trained Oscar Bin Liner encouraging him to set up Al Quaeeda as another weapon against the Russians. When it became obvious that their two new weapons weren't needed any more as the Russian plan had failed, they ditched both the Taliban and Oscar. Meanwhile Saddam carried on using the constitution we gave him in the 1920s, Margaret Thatcher entertained him in London, the US sold him the chemicals he needed for his gas attacks and we all bought his oil. He got ideas of expansion and threatened to de-stabilise the Middle East and even worse, defied and bamboozled all the diplomatic efforts of the west. So he was invaded twice, we killed him and we are where we are today. Thank God Obama knows all this and has started to roll back the effects in America, our Supine Leader Godron will fall in with anything he does because we need the US as our 'special friend'. But it is too late, we have destroyed and antagonised the civilisations that gave us algebra, arabic numerals, the first real astronomy and the seeds of our 'civilisation'. It will take a century of hard work to get anywhere close to repairing some of the damage we have done. Ireland gives us a clue, we created the problem by trying to colonise the whole of Ireland for 500 years but in the end we had to sit down and talk to what we describe as 'Terrorists' but what they called 'patriots' and we are slowly achieving a measure of stabilty. This is exactly what has to happen in the Middle East and the most encouraging sign of recent weeks is that John Mitchell has been given the job of starting the process, remember that he was a key part of the peace process in NI. We can start to have hope but at the same time we have to make positive moves towards the Muslim world and try to repair the damage we have done which started with the Crusades. End of history lesson.

Nicest thing today is that the Peppercorn class Tornado steam locomotive which started as an impossible dream and ended in a £3million success makes its first passenger carrying commercial journey today by hauling a train from York to Nexcastle. Wonderful and I wish them well.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2009 : 08:07
we have destroyed and antagonised the civilisations that gave us algebra, arabic numerals, the first real astronomy and the seeds of our 'civilisation'.

They also gave us 9/11  London July 7th   Madrid etc etc 
 No one made that up Stanley.
We can't rewrite History            Israel has been created.




Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2009 : 09:14
No amount of self flagelation would repair the damage of centuries. Since the begining of time there have been many attempts at world domination by both physical means and the other expediant of over population. both of which are still happening. In this country we still have the right to criticise openly the powers that be whether we put them there or not, go out and try that in certain countries. My avatar may be the Jolly Roger but my flag is still British.


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2009 : 10:26
A Local Issue.  A campaign has been running for a while now in conjunction with the Environment Directorate of LCC regarding traffic problems on Gisburn Rd and Bracewell Lane. This involves the possible placeing of traffic calming measures to reduce the speed of vehicles using these roads. There have been a lot of objections and a meeting is to be held in the Rainhall Centre on Monday evening 2nd Feb, at 7.30 PM. Whatever the outcome, something needs to be done. I live close to a junction in the "Syke" area. The volume of HGVs has increased possibly due to the reliance on "Satnav" and the speed of some of these beggars belief. At the moment it kicks off at about 4.0 AM with 8 wheelers carrying spoil  out to God knows where, these are joined between 8.0 and 9.0AM by "school run mums in their battle taxis and people exiting and arriving in Barlick for work. The volume remains fairly constant throughout the day only decreasing at about 11.0 PM. the most noticeable feature of this is a total disregard for the speed limits. In summer add to this a large number of aggricultural vehicles (always in a hurry). I have often seen Police speed cameras in use on Kelbrook Rd and Skipton Rd but never once on the roads in question. I dont think that a day goes by without an ambulance going out on a "Blue Lighter" between 8.30 and 9.30 AM. Sunday being the only exeption. Whatever your views on traffic calming, if this concerns you, Monday Evening is your chance to have a say.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 07:13
Peter, it's not self flagellation to recognise the mistakes of the past, it's common sense.

Frank, who said anything about making anything up?  Any good negotiator will tell you that the most important first step is to understand the mind-set of the people you are negotiating with. The folk memory is very retentive, there are still many people in Ireland who remember what they were taught at their mother's knee about the atrocities perpetrated by the Black and Tans in the 1920s. Exactly the same time we were using aerial bombing, machine-gunning fleeing survivors and firing mustard gas in what was Mespotamia. You may not care to be reminded of these things but they have to be taken into account because in the end we will have to talk to people who oppose us whether it be Hamas, Al Quaeeda or the Taliban.

Look at the places where we are losing lives, it is not an accident that they are all places where we have interfered in the past with little regard for the indigenous populations, it is a consequence of past policies and actions. Think Malaya, Korea, Vietnam, the Balkans, Ireland, Iran. Iraq and Afghanistan. They all fit the bill. All right, it's history but it is also fact and the people haven't forgotten or forgiven.

Peter, I have long held the opinion, and put it up to the powers that be, that we should have a 20mph limit in town with speed cameras. The last time Bracewell Road came up I suggested that it should be 30mph all the way to the Horton junction. We can't get away from traffic but what we can do is set sensible speed limits and most important, enforce them.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Julie in Norfolk
Senior Member


1632 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 08:16
In Norfolk we have several "cameras" that flash "SLOW DOWN" when traffic is faster than the set speed limit. They are surprisingly effective. The width limiting methods are good - but avoid sleeping policemen like the plague.


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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 08:35
Stanley does all this righting of wrongs mean we should give Canada back to the Indians?  Or to the Mongols?

In my opinion the only thing that most Arab countries have to offer (and at a price) is OIL.  They need to heal their own wounds (Sunni & Shiites) first before we even try to deal with them.  We cannot rewrite or re live history, the emphasis has to be on today and the future.  There is no room in a reasonable/fair/tolerant world for either religious extremists or biggots, it is impossible to deal with either.

 


HERB


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 10:28
I have just read of a 300lb bomb being dealt with near a primary school at Castlewellan, Co, Down. It seems that it was left there as an abortive attempt to place it at the British Army's base at Ballykinler. The indigenous natives of places like Mesopotamia have been bashing away at each other since man began to walk upright, in fact this applies to most peoples on Earth. It would also appear that people in places that were once Colonised etc only remember the bad bits. Are we also responsible for the dreadful atrocities that still take place between the natives of certain countries. How many attempts have there been (some successful) to impose different ideals on our own country. I am going on holiday, a rare event, this year, travelling through France,Switzerland,Austria and over the Bremmer pass into Italy for seven days in Tuscany. I will not be trying to murder the Pope or blow up Hitlers birth place, I am going to enjoy their culture. I am not a Catholic or a Jew, but I get on well with both. No plans to ever visit Iran though.


thomo Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 11:05
Herb, Stanley isn't saying any country should give back its land to another. He's pointing out that we do need to understand the background to these issues before we barge in and try to do the wrong thing. It's OK people talking about it being the 21st century etc but we have to understand what motivates folk in these other lands and it's usually based in history. It doesn't matter what we think is right or wrong about the Israel-Gaza conflict, it's what they think that will decide matters.

Another black mark for the bankers. They set up tracker mortgages in 2007 with promises to charge interest at 1% below the bank rate. Now it emerges that if the bank rate falls to 1% or below they will be charging zero interest on those mortgages (actually 0.01% because their computers don't undertsand zero). They haven't covered themselves in the small print. Now before we all laugh, just think what a terrible business model this is. If it happens, those banks will lose all income from those mortgages just at a time when they are crying out for money. How could people who are supposed to be bank executives have let themselves into such a daft situation??

A further turn on this story. The Nationwide (a building society, not a bank) was being criticised a few weeks ago because it was sensible and set a "collar" on its trackers (the interest rate at which they would stop lowering their mortage interest, i.e. a baseline minimum level). They were being criticised for being sensible. One thing they and the others who set collars got wrong though was to not reveal it in the small print.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 07:21
Quite Tiz, thank you for that. By a coincidence Ragi Omar did a good programme on the Crusades last night on C4 and in effect said exactly what I did about the folk memory and the cost of Pope Urban's rebid speech in Alleppo that started the Crusades. The first step towards mending the breach is understanding what caused it and to try to destroy the point by attributing opinions never voiced is not productive. As for recompensing indigenous peoples for the hact that we stole their land and their rights, it was too big a crime to be capable of being compensated for but the least we can do is recognise what we did. In Oz and NZ they have moved towards this and more power to them.

I flagged the tracker mortgages up a while ago, brilliant eh. No worst case planning but I'll bet someone somewhere pointed out the danger and was ignored.

What really pissed me off yesrtrday was Godron criticising the workers who are protesting against the fact that contracts have been drawn up which allow the contractors to bring in their own labour. What are they supposed to do for god's sake, roll over for the greater good because the foreign workers are cheaper?  Godron's big problem is that the resurgence in his ratings that followed the realisation of the credit crunch has turned out to be a dead cat bounce. You can fool some of the people all the time......


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 07:26
PS re. trackers. I have just remembered what my brainy daughter Janet told me about her expoerience when working on risk assessment for a major investment bank. Every time she queried a new algorithm and asked if they knew exactly what its effect would be she was overuled on the grounds that the only criterion was would it make money. She says that the biggest problem is that they act alike a virus in the system and there is only one cure once this has happened. Shut down the network and destroy all the data. Of course this will never be done because too much has been invested in them. The more you look into the problem the worse it gets.....


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 09:09
Just been listening to Lord Sleaze pontificating on how a bloke thrown out of work and seeing a foreign worker brought in should react. (He said he knew all about the North East because he was MP for Hartlepool) When will he and others realise that we can identify politics and spin at 100 yards. What we need is an admission that when our workers are passed over for our contracts something is sadly wrong with the job market and perhaps even more importantly the way we have allowed the hard-nosed industries to decline over the last thirty years. How come Italian firms can outbid British ones for an oil refinery contract. How come the best railway builders in the world and nuclear engineering as well are French. It's not protection to nurture home industry and price should not be the only consideration. The argument that best price on a contract is best for the consumer is false. The shareholders get the benefit not the end user and it's the end user that pays the dole money out in the end. The accountants destroyed ship-building, steel and mining. The market did the same job for manufacturing. I'm all for a bit of protection if it keeps British labour in work.

By the way, Mandy deployed the old canard about there being half a million jobs vacant in the UK at the moment. First he never addressed the matter of what these jobs were, stacking supermarket shelves on minimum wage doesn't cut it. Second he cynically used a false statistic because the vast proportion of those jobs are simply statistical and caused by the normal flux of people moving from one job to another. He knows this but used it as an argument and wasn't pulled up by Humphries.

In short he completely avoided addressing a legitimate complaint. That's the quality of minister we have these days. Do not expect any change.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 09:59
 What are they supposed to do for god's sake, roll over for the greater good because the foreign workers are cheaper?

Not quite correct Stanley they are paid the Construction Industry Wages.
What makes it cheaper for the empolyer is that they are happy with a 4 % profit margin rather than the norm of 20% which is the British Firms way.  The reason they employ their own is they are more reliable and will complete the job on time. They are not travelling men going home for the weekend, they are here for 3 months or more in a lot of cases. I don't know if the company has to pay NI or Social costs  for it's workers either ????



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 11:19
"The reason they employ their own is they are more reliable and will complete the job on time"

Frank, they are bound to be "reliable" and complete the job on time - the ones at the Lincolnshire refinery are housed in a barge on the river, descibed as "like a Soviet prison ship" and bussed to and from the refinery.


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