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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 21:21
 Coalition is grown up politics. There is really no alternative look to Ireland, Spain, Portugl or Greece you can't spend what you don't have.
Remember the miners the Goverment have the Ability the Resource and the Will to move the Police to confront the minority, albeit a sizeable one.
If they don't we all go down the pan, simple politics really, and I don't want to go down the pan thanks
This is not new age hippy territory this is reality.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bodger
Regular Member


892 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 21:21
Bradders, i may be wrong, but we need a revolution, the way people vote is village pump politics, my ancestors voted for a, b ,c, etc. so will i, the new generation are right, we need a new way of thinking, the day of them & us is gone, employers &workers should now realise that neither will exist without the other, we dont need unions, they only provide a common wage for everyone, i am from the old stock that  say a person is paid for their ability to do the job, 'm not knocking the fact that the original idea of unions  was needed, but in this day & age we are all educated, so the common man should be able to negotiate the working terms, that is if their brain is not fuddled by drink, drugs, paid for by the inherited fact that my parents did'nt work, why should i,  the dole should be abolished as long as there is one job advertised, it dosent matter if you were trained as a ?, you can always learn to be ??,.in my lifetime i have been an apprentice, errand boy, devlopment engineer, plant manager, works director, publican, self employed, service engineer, shift worker, and at present, 74 yrs of age & self employed, but I have never been out of work.


"You can only make as well as you can measure"
                           Joseph Whitworth
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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 22:59
Bodger ...Revolution or not , we need a better way of electing OUR government.....!

It won't only be students who remember this latest episode ......

Frank ....So you were happy with the way Margaret Thatcher treated the miners , were you ....?

I'd like to hear your defence of that ......


BRADDERS BLUESINGER Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 01:05
We are none of us in the know as far as what goes on..in my life i have had a little sortie int the very foothills of political goings on and the cover ups and conspiracy even at that level was astounding.. Frank if you think the coalition was formed as an adult way to run a country you are being naive in the extreme..it was the outcome of shipwrecked survivors from an outmoded systam clinging onto each other in order to preserve some kind of power!


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 05:53
Brad, the same thoughts occurred to me.

Bodge, I agree we need a new system of governance. I say governance and not politics because I think many matters should be taken out of politics, they are too important to be the playthings of people whose motives are pursuit of power and short-term manipulation for tribal advantage. That's the 'revolution' we need. Problem is that as soon as the word 'revolution' is mentioned the political brain thinks 1798 and 1919 when they should be thinking 1688.

Belle, " the outcome of shipwrecked survivors from an outmoded system clinging onto each other in order to preserve some kind of power", nice quote and I think you have hit the nail on the head. Coalition is always a last resort. Does anyone seriously think that the Tories wanted to share power with the LibDems because it was 'grown-up'?

Speaking of public protest Thatcher once said 'It isn't the British Way!" All she demonstrated was that she knew nothing of our history. Public protest has always been the balancing power that brings the politicians up short and makes them think again, even if they have abused their power and used force to put the protesters, peaceful as well as violent, down. Read history, look at Peterloo, look at Manny Shinwell and the strikes on Clydeside in 1919, for a more recent example look at the Poll Tax Riots which forced the Tories to rethink a mistaken policy. Whether the politicians like it or not, in the end the voters hold the power. Normally they acquiesce and keep quiet but when the pressure reaches a certain point the pot starts to boil over and in every case where this has happened the politicians have eventually to step back.

This is the process we are seeing now. Anyone with half a brain knows that the measures taken by the government to get the country's finances back on an even keel are motivated more by tribal instinct and the need to protect large capital holders than simple justice. The system blew away trillions of pounds in reckless gambling with our money and has protected itself by making the electorate pay. Where is the fundamental principle of justice that the perpetrators should pay? Can anyone really be surprised that in the end, despite all the spin and waffle, this is going to become clear to the people? Politicians live for control and their first reaction is always 'we must stop/control this'. Nobody admits it but they think in terms of the civil police, the clandestine agencies and in the last resort, the Army. If you think that is far-fetched think Tonypandy in 1911 and Churchill sending the army in, Glasgow in 1919 tanks and troops, think Northern Ireland, Black and Tans and the later repression of what started as legitimate political aspirations but developed into terrorist activity on all sides. (Remember what happened to John Stalker when he was asked to investigate, found that there was a 'shoot to kill policy' and said so? Hounded out of office by spurious allegations which ruined his reputation, had collateral damage to other people involved and in the end the policy was admitted and all involved cleared of any wrong-doing. Classic example of the government using clandestine agancies to protect itself. Think Arthur Scargill, same scenario.) Ask yourself, did any of these actions effect a cure?

Diehard reactionaries will always scream that 'the country is out of control!' and going towards ruination. They are always wrong, protest is a legitimate way of stating a principle or trying to right a grievance. Think a million people marching through London in protest. That's right, against Iraq incursion. Were they wrong, was this a symptom of the country going down the pan? Or was it a peaceful and sensible attempt to point out to the politicians they were making a huge mistake? Peaceful assertion of a public right is good and it is only those with a vested interest in retaining the power to pursue inequitable policies who would argue otherwise. The only consolation is that experience/history shows us that in the end the people prevail. The sooner the better!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 07:53
Bradders as usual you are in a different world, the trouble makers are PUNKS, this does not say that all who demonstrate are punks, the good guys get hijacked, Frank suggested that you smoke less, get into the 2010 not the 60's. m Demonstrations are fine, not riots!


HERB


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 09:41
Just for the record Herb ...I do not smoke (anything) ...My comment to my Doctor was a joke , and she had the sense to find it funny !...Frank is just Frank.

I also refer you to the whole of the first sentence of my post , with particular emphasis on the mention of  "distance"....and I wonder how the episodes have been reported in Canada.

I would not advocate violence , but as Stanley has mentioned , "pots boil over" when people are feeling  so strongly about an issue, and it's happened again.

Calling the perpetrators Punks , isn't actually cutting edge,  21'st C language ........Sounds a bit more "Raymond Chandler"  to me . (I 'm not being offensive)
 

 

Edited by - Bradders on 12/12/2010 09:46:40 AM

Edited by - Bradders on 12/12/2010 09:51:45 AM


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 09:48
Frank ....So you were happy with the way Margaret Thatcher treated the miners , were you ....?
Bradders were you happy with the way the miners treated the Goverment of the day no matter what politics ???.
What I said was the Goverment have the Ability To.
I struggle to see a new way of electing a Goverment if Coalotion is not the answer the only alternative if first past the post. Take the last vote in Parliment over tuition fees. It was decided by the majority of elected MPs You can't get away from that Fact.
ps Thatcher turned out to be right over the reason for the closure of the Mines.
 No one wanted to pay for the Pollution, or the Cost of mining hence very few mines today. Now if you are saying or indicating that you think the State should  have subsidised the mines that is a different thing all together.

Edited by - frankwilk on 12/12/2010 09:53:09 AM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 10:08
Stanley Looks to me like your coming onboard. If politics can't manage the system who can ?? The Private Sector ? Are you advocating the removal of Councils and Councillors ??. I am looking for which countries in the World run on the system you advocate ???
I come to that because of this

"Bodge, I agree we need a new system of governance. I say governance and not politics because I think many matters should be taken out of politics, they are too important to be the playthings of people whose motives are pursuit of power and short-term manipulation for tribal advantage. That's the 'revolution' we need. Problem is that as soon as the word 'revolution' is mentioned the political brain thinks 1798 and 1919 when they should be thinking 1688.

HOW ?? You now have to satisfy 1000s of millions who have communications.
You couldn't get from Barlick to Beijing in 6 months in 1688 now you can be in the centre of Beijing in nano seconds with modern communication, that is what has changed. 
All you great thinkers have No Answers to todays problem. 



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 11:04
Frank I note that you failed to answer my question...but as usual "wriggled " and asked one of your own ......

And I WILL answer..........In the early 80's Arthur Scargill's  response to a  coodinated and deviously planned attack on his industry  (The Ridley Plan) was to call a National Strike....There is plenty of documentary evidence about  the Government's subsequent actions , much of it disgusting.

Once again they were terrified that they would suffer the fate of the Heath administation and loose Power....They resorted to organised  Police Violence , manipulation of the media, false accounting , starvation tactics (withdrawing even the most basic assistance for miners dependents) and a smear campaign against Union Leaders. Even  stealing  Union funds by sequestration. The list goes on.

There is a genuine feeling that the Thatcher Government were out for revenge for  what happened to Heath.

There WAS  room for compromise (MacGregor has admitted that it would have been inevitable if the NACODS  Union had joined the strike) ......The same would have been true , if stockpiles  at powerstations had run out.....

I'm not sure quite what "treatment the miners gave the Government"

you are refering to Frank , but faced with the above and very nearly starving , I don't find it difficult to undestand the tactics of the miners ...

I was close by at the time , in North Derbyshire  .......It was Evil...!

Thatcher's idea of "The British Way " no doubt.....Is it your's?

 


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 11:11
Frank, my answerw would involve God, and that would get you all on the same side, against me!!


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 11:46
No Belle it wouldn't, I don't believe, But I do see the Ten Commandmants as decent rules for Society to live by. Vicars and Priest are like the politicos they used it for Control.
Bradders sorry if you missed my reply I did agree with Thatcher. The miners were being used by Arthur for political reasons, they wanted to bring down the elected Goverment. It can't be any clearer than that !! Any clown could see Coal was on it's way out, that was Arthurs motivation he had seen the writing on the wall and used it to manipulate. Remember the Nottingham Miners !!
I know more about spliting families than you will ever understand. I will post my father in laws 47 years of service to the mining industry just so you can see. Oh my father in law was against the strike, but wouldn't defy the Fed. His brother was one of the first to stand up and say I'm not starving for Arthur, and went back to work. The first miner to call him a Scab in the club was S****ing teeth for a week



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 12:59
Who mentioned "splitting families" ?........

I don't believe Scargill's motivation was simply to bring down the Government  , just for the sake of it .....(I think it was nearer the other way round)

 


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 13:12
Evil was a strong word to use, and nothing was more evil than the splitting of Familes hence my reply.
 I don't understand your reply "I don't believe Scargill's motivation was simply to bring down the Government  , just for the sake of it .....(I think it was nearer the other way round)
Did the Goverment go on Strike ?? Do you mean that the Goverment engineered the Strike to bring down the NUM ?? if that was the case what a resounding sucess.
We need to support the Police  they protect people and property, and they are a tool of goverment to carry out that task.  I don't doubt there are bad eggs in the Police Force, but I do believe the majority only respond to extreme provocation.  The Police don't set out for confrontation they set out to uphold the Law of the Land, which when I last looked was set by elected goverments, and not mob rule be it the NUM or the NUS

Edited by - frankwilk on 12/12/2010 1:20:46 PM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 12/12/2010 : 17:38
I think my statement was as plain as it needed to be, and should not have posed a question......If you did not understand it  Frank,  there is little I can do....

I can agree with you about the positive aspects of Policing , but we MUST NOT condone their Violent element , as witnessed by many in Parliament Square recently...

Don't forget that an innocent man (Ian Tomlinson) died at their hands (1/4/09  G 20 protest) and  student Alfie Meadows  is very lucky to be alive today......

I would urge you to watch this  "Cavalry Charge " on YouTube , and ask yourself whether you think that it was  a spontaneous reaction , by Police under extreme  provocation.....I  REALLY don't think so!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axWyu1t4rkE



Edited by - Bradders on 12/12/2010 5:39:18 PM

Edited by - Bradders on 12/12/2010 11:23:13 PM


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