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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Another
Traycle Mine Overseer


6250 Posts
Posted - 22/12/2010 : 16:54
Can we please behave with some integrity and respect to each other even though we may disagree with respective viewpoints.

If you cannot post withoput resorting to personal attacks then don't respond at all.  Nolic


" I'm a self made man who worships his creator" Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 22/12/2010 : 17:44
Yes Nolic , I agree...But perhaps my response WAS  a tad provocative  !

To address the question in point .......We all pay into the Governments cofers (or have done ) . They then use the money as they see fit . We may then criticise and vote accordingly.....

The very suggestion that Government operates a so called "Ponzi"  scheme anywhere is FRANKLY  ludicrous....

I have looked up the term and read about the man who gave it it's name ....and I am still of the same opinion.

I'm not offended by silly jibes about what may or may not keep my ears apart , because whatever IS  in there does the job, and doesn't release the Red Mist !

 


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catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 22/12/2010 : 19:43


quote:
Bradders wrote:


The very suggestion that Government operates a so called "Ponzi"  scheme anywhere is FRANKLY  ludicrous....


 

I thought he was saying the government were all ponces.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 22/12/2010 : 21:34
Noooooo Cat you can't use that word, I see Osborne is in trouble for using the term Pantomime Dame to a fellow MP even though the MP in question has outed himself as a homosexual. I think I would prefer Pantomime Dame to homosexual if I was of that persuasion !!!
Well it looks like I will have to wish you all a Merry Christmas, I tire of this humbug I have searched for another  description of what Nat Ins is and I can't find an answer. You pay into the scheme today money which is paid out to someone else next week, for the promise of when it's your turn you will get the same or more (linked to the wage index). Without any guarantee what so ever, Madoff got locked up for that !!!  and people did it of their own free accord, ours is compulsory mmmmmm
 I don't agree with Bradders because if I did I know then we would both be wrong. 

Edited by - frankwilk on 22/12/2010 9:36:23 PM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 22/12/2010 : 23:15


quote:
frankwilk wrote:
Noooooo Cat you can't use that word, I see Osborne is in trouble for using the term Pantomime Dame to a fellow MP even though the MP in question has outed himself as a homosexual. I think I would prefer Pantomime Dame to homosexual if I was of that persuasion !!!
Well it looks like I will have to wish you all a Merry Christmas, I tire of this humbug I have searched for another  description of what Nat Ins is and I can't find an answer. You pay into the scheme today money which is paid out to someone else next week, for the promise of when it's your turn you will get the same or more (linked to the wage index). Without any guarantee what so ever, Madoff got locked up for that !!!  and people did it of their own free accord, ours is compulsory mmmmmm
 I don't agree with Bradders because if I did I know then we would both be wrong. 

Edited by - frankwilk on 22/12/2010 9:36:23 PM
I have found the "tooing and froing" of this business rather interesting.

In the year that the NHS was born, rather than conceived, I was in my later teens, going to school and had a penpal in the US. On one occasion I was asked by this pen pal what this health thing was, that they had heard about, and how it would work.

I explained, as best I could, what Clem and his gang had come up with and I remember saying that I could not understand how it was possible to fund such a strange system when the future was so unpredictable. It was an adjuct to the National Insurance scheme which had been altered only a year or so before.

Initially it was every thing free on request, from spectacles, wigs, free gnashers, surgical procedures ...the lot (some of the more modern procedures, like strapadictomy, had not been thought of, but they too would have been free on request had society wanted it).

It has been of interest through the years since then to see just how the range of "available free services" have changed, as the available money  has  been  used by both parties to proritise services which would best bolster the party in power's popularity by targeting certain groups of the electorate.

I think it was probably my first intimation that politicians are very short sighted.......by design.

 


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 22/12/2010 : 23:30
Nope...Frank, you are just plain wrong.....!

Search for as many  descriptions  as you like .......

Your assertion that the NHS is a fraudulant scheme is incorrect......

As is your comment about the salaries of Scottish Doctors.... 

Edited by - Bradders on 23/12/2010 12:00:10 AM


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 05:46
Colin is quite right. Funnily enough, rather than spend time arguing about the NHS I am enjoying the benefits which do not involve me putting my hand in my pocket. I'm a simple soul and that's good enough for me.

I've just finished reading Mannie Shinwell's autobiography, not totally objective and puts him in the best light but nowt wrong with that, he wrote it. The value for me is the insights you get into that forgotten world 100 years ago and what happened to change it in 1945. I'm on more solid ground now, Campbell's definitive analysis of Nye Bevan. Wonderful stuff and very well researched. I'll report on the foundation of the NHS when I get to it but at the moment I'm blown away by the wage reductions in the mining industry which were at the root of forty years of industrial strife in the mining areas. Also been reminded of how important Moseley was in the Labour movement, member of the NEC and very strong on worker's rights after his experiences in WW1. Bevan was attracted to him because he was a man of action but never really trusted him and of course he was right. When Moseley couldn't get the action he wanted he moved to the right and founded what became the Fascist element in British Politics. Quite surprising how many right wingers agreed with him at all levels in society.

All right, Frank will say that reading history is nostalgia. Well, sorry kid, I don't agree. What was happening then is the root of the influences we still see at work in society. Bevan's core belief was that a pure capitalist system is not democratic and I can't see how anyone can argue with that. At first, as a very active Miner's Union official he believed in direct action but after the dreadful treatment of the miners and the failure to get concerted industrial action against the cuts he realised that he had to change tactics and went for the Parliamentary route. It can be argued that in the end he failed because he never saw socialist principle gain an ascendancy but what I like about him is that through all the vicissitudes he never lost faith in his core conviction and principles. I'm only just starting on the book but I'm enjoying it already! (Ted, next one up for shaving is Frank Cousins!)

So, I'm not trying to educate anyone else, I'm working on my own education by reading the evidence. Who knows, in the end it might all become clear! One thing is certain, the answer, if there is one, won't be gained from polemics on web sites, it will be found by listening to brilliant researchers who have dedicated their lives to finding the hard evidence and assessing it. Hard work and takes a lot of effort but in the end, more believable and informative.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 06:47
Nolic it seems to be coming more and more obvious that only one opinion counts and everyone else is an "idiot", your point is well taken, but we all need to step back and realize that an opinion is not A FACT and that we are all allowed to voice OUR opinions.  If trhis is not the case and respect is out the window then shut down the site and we can all read the BET.


HERB


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Another
Traycle Mine Overseer


6250 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 07:54
Herb, its not the site that is the problem but this thread where opinions on "political" issues polarise and some people end up name calling. We tend to have a pretty good idea of the spin individuals will put on a particular issue so can we not just accept it and accept the fact that we are generally a pretty close knit group on this site and in this topic in particular. If things start to get heated and people become individually riled then take a step back, do something else for a day or so then come back to this topic with a different observation about something else.
In the great scheme of things we are not going to change each others views so lets all act with a bit of respect and decorum. Nolic


" I'm a self made man who worships his creator" Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 11:20
The rest of you have it easy, you've only been told off by Nolic...I've been scolded by Belle!

What attracted my attention today was this news...A cargo ship carrying 1000 tons of sausage has disappeared off the African coast. The navy says that the ship has probably been captured by Salami pirates.


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 13:09
"scolded" now there's a patronising word if ever I heard one!


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 20:32
To My Socialist Friends: 

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. 


I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2011, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make Great Britain great. Not to imply that the UK is necessarily greater than any other country in the Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishes. 

To My Conservative Friends : 

Merry Christmas and a Happy & Healthy New Year !



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 21:02
Bradders sorry  if you look up Q & As Scottish Parliment you will see no GP in Scotland earns less than £100,000 a year Fact.
Now in the spirt of Christmas will you please stop your response to my post without inferring I am lying, before you have assembled a cohesive response. I said National Insurance is a ponzi scheme and I await your response to dispute that Fact .  If I have it wrong would someone please explain the name of a scheme that says "Pay in today for future riches, these riches will be known as " The Old Age Pension "  What do you mean Gov I can't opt for my own scheme I can only join your scheme. No Citizen you can opt for your own But you have to pay to Ours as well.   cake and eat it Ho Ho Ho  
The NHS is only slightly diferent when you have compulsion to maintain it. Have you noticed surgeons have started to  say,  I won't operate unless you do X Y or Z. See the Obesity debate which looks set to follow Smoking and Drinking as obstacles to treatment. I wonder what will follow Obesity, you have to run 5 miles a day or we will with hold your treatment !!
Only the State can get away with that

Edited by - frankwilk on 23/12/2010 9:06:12 PM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Anni
Regular Member


634 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 21:19
WHAT ATTRACTED YOUR ATTENTION TODAY?

The last few pages of this thread - and I wish it hadn't. Cry


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 23/12/2010 : 21:23
I'm working on my own education by reading the evidence.
wow  Stanley I wonder in years to come people will look at Chilcot or such like and say.
I'm working on my own education by reading the evidence.

How do you know it is not distorted evidence, biased by the writer views ??
Yours and My versions of the last 40 years would differ so much that no one would know the truth !!!
I have a library of books, so please don't make the assumption that I don't read. I do, but I am very wary of what is presented as Fact in Historic text. The X reference to establish the truth is beyond me and you, and an awful lot of so called experts.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
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