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panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted -  28/01/2008  :  17:33
According to this weeks BET, there is a proposal by Maple Grove Developments (Preston) to create a Supermarket and Car Parking for 275 cars on the current Carlson Filtration site at Butts. Apparently, plans are already underway to create a new food store and car park. The plans are at an early stage and rest on obtaining planning permission and a successful re-location of the Carlson Filtration operations.

You can read the article in the Barnoldswick and Earby Times (BET) and comment on the article here:

www.pendletoday.co.uk

The development company is holding an exhibition of the proposed plans on
Wednesday 30th Jan 2008 at the Rainhall Centre from 2.30pm to 7.30pm.

Good or bad idea, discuss..

Edited by - panbiker on 28/01/2008 17:45:05


Ian
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 11:49

Here is the text of a letter I have sent today to Pendle Planning Department. 

PROPOSED SUPERMARKET DEVELOPMENT AT BUTTS, BARNOLDSWICK

 

I wish to register my strong objection to the proposed redevelopment of the Carlson Filtration site in Butts, Barnoldswick on the following grounds.  

TRAFFIC

There will be a massive increase in traffic movement in the area, both heavy service vehicles and private cars.  All these movements will have to use already restricted streets in the centre of town or private residential roads and with the exception of the Harper Street/Butts route (residential) will have to use very narrow roads for access. 

SIZE

At over 30,000 square feet, the proposed building is totally out of scale with the surrounding area because this will not be a traditional building.  Add to this the car park and associated works which can only make matters worse. 

USE

Barnoldswick does not need another 30,000 square feet of retail space.  The town is not a natural or easy destination and any arguments that it will ‘bring people into the town’ are spurious.  A far better use for the site would be affordable town housing for which there is a ready demand in Barnoldswick because the town is well placed for commuters and has some character. 

EFFECT ON THE BUILT ENVIRONMENT

In addition to the necessary purchase and demolition of properties to improve access, the imposition of a development of this size and type in the middle of a traditionally built town next to a conservation area would be completely out of scale and character.   

EFFECT ON TOWN CENTRE TRADE

This proposed development would damage the town’s greatest asset, that it is a compact traditional northern town with a relatively prosperous array of privately owned shops.  Any argument that the development would generate more traffic in the town and therefore benefit the small shops is quite obviously ridiculous.   

ECONOMIC EFFECT SUPERMARKET VERSUS HOUSING

If a proper cost/benefit exercise was to be done on the relative merits of a supermarket versus more housing, experience teaches that in terms of cash flows into and out of the town, a supermarket would take out far more than it put in.  Housing on the other hand, if well controlled, stimulates local tax revenues, increases spend in local shops and businesses and is an asset to the town and its built environment.  This does not take account of the hidden costs of greater traffic flows in the town centre and residential areas. 

CONCLUSION

The only good thing that could be said about this proposal is that it would stimulate the Cooperative store into greater competition but this is not a valid planning criterion.  Beware of arguments that it would create jobs.  Set against any such claims the reduction in jobs at existing outlets and private businesses as they fight for survival and the loss of jobs at Carlson’s.  Recognise that empty retail premises in the town centre are the start of urban decline.  This is a development too far and should not be allowed to even reach the planning stage.  The only factor which is driving it is profit for Carlson’s and the developers none of which will benefit the local economy. 

One last thought.  The Westfield site was developed for housing and is a tidy and useful addition to the town’s housing stock.  In terms of access it was a far better site for a supermarket than the Butts site but this was never considered.  The same reasoning on use of brownfield sites and impact on surroundings should be applied to the Butts site. 

SCG/31 January 2008 

 I also made a couple of calls.  Harris Moss were quite surprised to hear that anyone was thinking of demolishing their premises.....  Mr Goodier at the Cooperative Estates dept. was quite interested as well.....  More ways of killing a cat than chasing it to death.....


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page

panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 12:13


quote:
Callunna wrote:

I asked a councillor why housing hadn't been proposed, and whether they were for or against the plans.
This councillor said the government would not allow housing on brownfield sites and that the borough was being forced to provide retail facilities within walking distance of the population,
and he/she couldn't say whether they were for/against the plans in case they had to sit on the planning committee - they would have to be seen as totally impartial.

In case they had to sit on the planning committee?

This is a ridiculous statement from a councillor!

Are they now drawing up committees by lottery or by lucky dip?  You are either on a committee or you are not, there is no guesswork or chance involved. I suppose some people could get confused about the commitees they were on, particularly if they never turned up.

I had a look round a few Government websites last night regarding the current policy on housing on brownfield sites. The rules say that it is to be encouraged and is far preferable to the developers usual choice of building on greenbelt (which is cheaper for them).

Nice letter Stanley, I agree on all counts.

Edited by - panbiker on 31/01/2008 12:14:26


Ian Go to Top of Page
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob


3044 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 12:14
Stanley - well put, that lad.

I think you covered all the points we seem to share on this forum in a calm, succinct but firm way. I notice one or two voters have shown a favourable reaction to the plans in the poll - I would be very keen for them to discuss why - maybe there's something we've overlooked. I always try to keep an open mind  so would welcome their opposing views.

I've also emailed the councillor I spoke to last night but so far haven't received a reply.
I asked him/her to clarify what I thought was said.
 
Panny - I may have misquoted the councillor (because I agree it sounds totally daft, although E was there and heard it too) which is why I've asked for clarification.

I think we might be pleasantly surprised by the council members' actions. Although it's 'fun' to give them a hard time, we must give credit where credit's due. I will try very hard not to slate them unless and until they've made their positions known and if I disagree with them.

Apologies if the formatting of this looks awful - it seems to have gone loopy. Or more likely, it's me that's gone loopy...

Formatting adjusted by Doc

H did you cut & paste the above from an apple application, because it had a lot of apple specific codes embedded into it, thats what caused the formatting issue.Go to Top of Page
Big Kev
Big


2650 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 12:22
I agree with the comments in your letter Stanley and support it.

There is, in my opinion, a far better site IF a new retail outlet was needed for Barlick, within walking distance of the population, much better road access (wagons already use it to access Silentnight) plus canal access, surely a selling point.
It may already be earmarked for something, as it has been fenced off, but the site at Long In would be an ideal location, IF Barlick needed a new supermarket.........


Big Kev

It doesn't matter who you vote for, you always end up with the government. Go to Top of Page
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob


3044 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 12:33
BK wrote: "plus canal access,"

By 'eck - I could do me whole week's shopping from the boat!!!

But seriously, your point is a good one BK, especially if the marina further along actually goes ahead. Barlick could become the canal attraction of choice for boaters - surely good for tourism?Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 12:54
It seems to me that the Butts development is not nescesarily about the suprmarket or whether we need one or we don't. After all, at this stage they do not have any particular retailer in mind, none have been approached. We know they are proposing a supermarket because there is more money in it for them. The plan seems to revolve around a lot of if''s and then's. They cant do anything unles Carlson can re-locate. If it all comes to nothing on this site, which I hope it will, I doub't very much whether they would build one anywhere else.

I do agree BK that the site you mention would be a lot more suitable and would probably get more support.

Edited by - panbiker on 31/01/2008 13:31:03


Ian Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 12:57
I'd be very pleased if someone took my text and used it to mail town councillors etc.  At the moment I've done enough.  by the way, I've sent it to BET, Gordon and David Whipp as well.  If anyone wants to copy the text, go to it, the more the merrier.  I wonder if the Co-op and Harris Moss are poking their fingers in........


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 13:02
I am reminded of Alice's Restaurant.....  "If you want to end war you gotta shout loud!"


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Ringo
Site Administrator


3793 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 17:30


quote:
Big Kev wrote:
I agree with the comments in your letter Stanley and support it.

There is, in my opinion, a far better site IF a new retail outlet was needed for Barlick, within walking distance of the population, much better road access (wagons already use it to access Silentnight) plus canal access, surely a selling point.
It may already be earmarked for something, as it has been fenced off, but the site at Long In would be an ideal location, IF Barlick needed a new supermarket.........

Owned by Weston EU in Foulridge who have planning permission for industrial units


Click for Skipton, United Kingdom Forecast
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Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob


3044 Posts
Posted - 31/01/2008 : 17:33
Thanks Stanley - I'll certainly send something off to various places.

Going back to BK's suggested site, as I was walking past this afternoon I thought how fantastic it would be to have a Sail Thru McDonalds there as well. Trouble is, by the time we'd got from the ordering window to the collection window, the burger would have gone cold... Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 04:59
Ringo has bought it actually for his retirement home......


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Ringo
Site Administrator


3793 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 05:37


quote:
Stanley wrote:
Ringo has bought it actually for his retirement home......


How did you know?


Click for Skipton, United Kingdom Forecast
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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 11:43
Call, just turn your thinking round and it will work, a ride by service on the towpath..hot food delivered straight to your boat....oh wait a minute are we talking sail boats?..ok then a sail by service!


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob


3044 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 14:32
Tinker - a jolly good idea for a fast food delivery service but remember the words 'fast' and 'canal' don't actually go together in the same way as normal civilisation. Laughing

 For example, we had a 'fast' journey from Silsden to Barlick in just under 2 days (it's normally 25 minutes in the car...)

On the subject of councillors/housing/brownfield/planning etc, here's the text of an email I received when I asked for clarification. I'm sure the councillor won't mind if I publish it here as it's far better to quote from the horse's mouth than me getting it slightly wrong:

=============== 

I think it is true to say that there is a lot of talk about the proposed supermarket development and lots of rumours flying around.  I hope we can get a really good turnout at the Town meeting to hear as many views as possible.

 

There have been some crossed wires about the Carlson site not being available for housing.  I assumed you meant the development of Council housing on this site if so I mentioned that there is a house-building moratorium in place, which means that there is no larger scale housing development at present anywhere in Pendle. Carlson’s couldn’t get housing on that site at present.

 

If we are talking about a private housing development, developers would be apply for planning permission for a housing development.  It just so happens that Carlson are talking with the supermarket developers and not a housing developer.

 

Very recently there was a survey carried out (the name completely escapes me but i will find out and email you the details) that came to the conclusion that there is not enough retail space in Pendle when compared to government guidelines (I am paraphrasing here!).  It may be that when the planning officer is giving recommendations for the planning application – they take this survey into account.

 I hope this clarifies.  You are right this is a sticky issue; as councillors planning is a very complex area and we have to ask for professional advice and public opinion where we can.  Trying to remain unbiased does not mean uninterested.

Later:

I just checked on one of my points:Private developers cannot get any permissions for housing at present, they also fall into the moratorium and it applies to them. There are minor exceptions but the Carlson site does come within it. 

===============

So, what's this moratorium (temporary prohibition of an activity) then? Has anyone heard of it? Last I heard, the government was forcing councils to build (or allow through private development) X number of new homes a year. 

I feel an ankle biting moment coming on... 


=================== 
www.sheldrickrose.co.uk
www.bernulf.co.uk
www.bernulfsplace.co.uk 
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Doc
Keeper of the Scrolls


2010 Posts
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 14:47
Yes, Pendle council reached their new housing development cap about 3 years ago, hence no new planning applications have been passed for new housing since. The government placed a 10 year moratorium on Pendle Council because of all the redevelopment of the houses in Nelson which come under "New Housing".

I came across this about 2 years ago when I applied to convert one of the barns attached to the farmhouse.

All the new houses that are currently going up must have had the planning applications past before the moratorium was put into place.


TTFN - Doc


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