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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 11:23


quote:
handlamp wrote:
Stanley, I always suspected that the PFI agreements would charge top rate on interest due. You and I, and, I.m sure, many others could see what a millstone we were taking on and, whilst the politicians, and their so called advisors must be held primarily responsible, surely it was incumbent on the civil servants who would negotiate the finer points to make sure that we were not taking burdens like that on. Or did they and were overruled? Regretably nowadays, or at least up to a few months ago, the people who are paid to know better didn't seem bothered about debt. 

It's called corruption and it crops up everywhere that that POLITICS is involved.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 16:44
As a break from the politics, have a look what the girls do in Weston-Super-Mare when the temperature is sub-zero! Click here for news story.


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catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 18:39
There were a good number of them that fitted the description......."super mare"....and many of them seemed to be out of control, due to lack of harness.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 05:52
Belle, apologies if 'who cares' upset you, I meant who cares if someone gets an atribution wrong. Does it matter? The cotnent identifies the real recipient and I have never done a Frank on you and rubbished what you said. As I have mentioned before I suspect I have mild dyslexia and this is what causes it when the name isn't on the screen in front of me. Worse things than being confused with Moh. Let me off?

Ted, I agree with you particularly whether civil servants were over-ridden if they pointed out flaws. I have too high a regard for the majority of public servants to believe that they missed the mistakes.

University education. I agree about the lightweight subjects, actually I don't see why many of them are included at University, but in terms of funding tuition properly and giving as many as possible the opportunity by funding university as was done for me I stand on not charging for it. What is happening  now is that mature students are dropping away, tutor to student contact is decreasing rapidly and the unpaid role of mentoring and nurturing at a personal level is more and more difficult. I talked again to my old tutor yesterday and he agreed with me, indeed he says it is even worse, more time spent on admin than teaching or marking papers.

The low paid tax argument against funding higher education is spurious. Tax is not homologated, it is levied accoring to income and funds everything. The proportion paid by low page taxpayers that goes to higher education is miniscule as is that into education by childless taxpayers. Once homologation and opt-outs are introduced the tax system fails.

As for dead-legs getting into HE for a skive. Of course there will be errors in selection but anyone who went through the selection process I had to surmount to get into Lancaster as a mature student will split their sides laughing at the concept of easy entry. I can assure you it was in-depth, very thorough and even aggressive. It was a close-run thing but they accepted me in the end. A dead-leg wouldn't have survived that process!

Frank I notice you have gone quiet on my 'pantomime' performance on the Transocean report. So my report was accurate?

Clegg gave it away yesterday when he said "anyone lucky enough to get into university should not object to paying". Since when has it been luck to get qualifications and pass a selection process. The institutions want the best intake they can get and go to incredible lengths to ensure this. Mind you. My experience is with a good institution and it may be that others haven't the same high standards, I don'r know about that.

I stand by free tuition.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 08:02
I have left the Transocean subject.because you only have the ability to quote someone else, you don't have the technical ability to assess what you are reading or hearing on this subject, because you have never done that type of work, or been involved in it.
 I was walking along one day with a very senior manager of an Oil Company ( that senior he had an oil field named after him ) He said I hear people rubbishing the company name and do you know the company dosen't do bad things to it's workers, it is us we are the company !!!!!
Back to Transocean the Toolpusher, Resovoir Engineer, Completions Engineer, Mud Engineer, Drilling Supervisor, Drilling Manager, Contracts Administrator, Procurement Manager etc etc  no one sets out to cause a spill or a blow out. It is the failure of people employed by the company. The culture of major oil companies albeit it Drilling or Production is Safety if someone cuts a corner they get procecuted or sacked. So in essence the report is looking to have someone sacked or procecuted good Journalism sensational Reporting call it what you want. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good story against the Capitalistic Oil Company.

Back to student fees Arts and Humanities the majority of work associated with these "degrees " is Public Funded work, they do not lead into Private sector jobs. Have you looked at the unemployment amongst graduates and then looked at  what degrees the unemployed graduate has ???

A lot of Mature Students are indulging Themselves
They do a degree and then don't put anything back into the society that has had to pay for their indulgence.
Here you go again Stanley spending other peoples hard earned money. "I stand by free tuition". Please feel free to donate your money to that cause if you so wish. 
No free degrees in Oz or NZ or the USA you want extra education you pay for it, I am glad we have followed the same route. We are putting more money into early years education which seems a good way to go to me .
 I forget what the figure was for the interest payments on the Debt that Labour left after being defeated at the election, but it was eye watering . A lot of teaching at University Level leaves a lot to be desired and the State has no way of correcting that. With a market in Education we may have improving Universities, lets wait and see what effect these changes have. When the last Goverment introduced Fees and Top Ups the University intake went Up not Down !!
I don't rubbish your posts by the way I correct them !!!!!!


Edited by - frankwilk on 10/12/2010 09:51:13 AM

Edited by - frankwilk on 10/12/2010 09:58:35 AM



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 10:50
You are wrong again Frank, you'd be surprised how many bursaries are on offer for higher education in the States.

Ah, so 'pantomime' was gentle correction then! I stand corrected but was my post accurate? I said "Transocean were in charge of the Shell N Sea well which had the same problem as the Macondo. Difference was that the BOP worked. Disturbing because they did exactly what they did at Macondo, only believed the positive information from the well. In addition, not enough mud in stock on the rig to choke the well."  Specific corrections needed Frank, not waffle.

More importantly, I was accosted in the street this morning by an impressive looking bloke who I didn't recognise.  Turned out it was our Gus! I still don't understand why my morning walk took twice as long as usual! What a nice start to the day!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 12:17
''Back to student fees Arts and Humanities the majority of work associated with these "degrees " is Public Funded work, they do not lead into Private sector jobs''

 
That's a really interesting comment, first because of the placing of inverted commas around degrees there, which would appear to imply these are not really degrees, or at least subjects worthy of study to that level.  Is that indeed your contention?

 
Second, I would also welcome some evidence that arts and humanities graduates do not fill positions in the private sector in large numbers, and clog up the public sector jobs (where of course there are hardly any 'hard science' graduates........)  Clearly, one can't be an engineer at Rolls Royce with a degree in psychology, but you can of course run the thing, as Sir John Rose holds a BA in psychology from St Andrews University.  Nor can you be a research chemist at Glaxo with a degree in economics, but you can be CEO as Andrew Witty has a BA in economics from the University of Nottingham.  All the way through the various functions that make a private company what it is, you will find humanities graduates.

 
I believe the purpose of a university education is the encouragement of independant learning and the development of critical thought via the analysis of evidence and argument and I would see this as overwhelmingly in the public good and not an indulgence.  These are skills which any degree worth its salt should encourage and skills which are transferable across many roles and sectors.  Thus, we have humanities graduates running two of the UK's most successful private companies just as for example, the last Ambassador to the UN had a PhD in quantum chemistry from the University of Wales.

 
Oh and as an aside, 'media studies' graduates have some of the best employment prospects around.  The reason?  The creative industries (film and TV production/advertising/video gaming/animation/theatre etc etc) is one industry where the UK is world class, and it earns the economy an enormous amount of money.

 
Richard Broughton



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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 12:24
I only remonstrated with you Stanley because you have mixed me up with Moh on several other topics recently, and although she is no doubt delightful I do like my own identity.
I would like to interject my opinion on tuition fees:
I already have one student who will leave uni in a year and a half with over 12, 000 pounds of debt. I am just putting another one through who will hopfully get a degree before the costs sky rocket.
Here are some things I would question
1) If my children had decided not to go into further education and looked for work the govt would have given them help with their living costs until they found a job. Why can't those in full time study also get help with living costs? Before you say they do, our kids are elligible for everything goign re maintainance grant. Once they have paid their fees and accommodation they have around ten pounds a week with which to get books, stationary, clothing, food , bus fares etc.....hardly living the high life!
2) If we want to steer away for the massive individual debt and the attitude to borrowing money that was fostered under the last conservative govt why perpetuate it by saddling the generation to come with debt before they even begin earning. Currently because they have to be in so much debt anyway most students think , what the hell, might as well get an overdaft too!


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 13:36
Richard you will be surprised to know I agree with a lot of what you say, but sorry there is almost always a but. The people you quote as running large companies is indeed correct. They would struggle in todays environment  to do it again though. I seem to remember a degree is the ability to absorb, retain and recall information. Something dosen't gel here with our education system, the other day we had a report that our education achievements have fallen below Poland and Estonia to quote but two countries, yet the goverment has been  pouring money  into education without getting results. If we can't  get it right at Secondary School level how do we churn out all these new graduates??  Indeed some media studies graduates do get good jobs in the Private Sector, but again numbers are limited.  The number of graduates being turned out  are exceeding the good jobs available. Hence graduate unemployment in certain sectors.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 13:40
Transocean were in charge of the Shell N Sea well which had the same problem as the Macondo.

No Stanley Transocean were not in charge. Shell was in charge and it was not the same problem as Macondo. Macondo was a failing of a cement plug and lax operations.




Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 14:08
I have two sons one at University and one completed Uni
The one who has completed Uni has no debt he went to a University close to Home, so he stayed and lived at Home. Our second son pays his way through Uni by serving in the RMR so he to won't end up with debt.
I never went to Uni and did OK, like millions of others. How come it has become a right to be paid for by others that if you want a degree it is now almost treated as an entitlement ??
" You are wrong again Frank, you'd be surprised how many bursaries are on offer for higher education in the States ".
The bursaries you quote are paid by using  the fees of the High paying graduates, or by alumni which is well established in the USA. So I am not wrong you indicate by your response that the Bursaries are State provided which you know is not correct. When Oxbridge can afford to have bursaries we may have a route for the poor into the higher levels of education.
You missed replying to my earlier piece about a cousin who paid his way through MIT by working for 2 years in the UK and saving to pay the fees to futher his prospects.

Sorry if this offends but you should only be allowed to go to University if your work prospects are enhanced by your degree. 
You have decided to opt out of Work for the 3/4 years it takes to obtain your degree, and you want to be paid by others who have left education and are working !!! 
This no longer an option.
 HND HNC by day release with Night School was the norm, Oh and you worked whilst doing it.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 14:12
Belle
If we want to steer away for the massive individual debt and the attitude to borrowing money that was fostered under the last conservative govt . 
Have I missed something here ? did the last Goverment ( labour)not encourage a Housing Bubble ?? and did they not run the biggest deficit in our History or since WW2. Are we not saddled by massive interest payments on our borrowed National Debt ??



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 15:19
Yes you have missed something, the attitudes to money, IE "have it all now, pay later " which have ruined not only our country but much of the developed world, were instigated and fostered by Maggie Thatchers govt. The term yuppie you will probably remember, young upwardly mobile, they are the onew that were spawned in the 70's and have wreaked so much havoc on world finances. I do not want to get involved in party politics, which I find small minded, but if you look at the world objectively you will see that whilst the last govt certainly couldn't stop the rot, it wasn't them who started it.


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 17:21
Sorry Belle I agree with you.
  But it wasn't just the Conservative Goverment all Goverments want to give the voters the feel good factor that's how they get re-elected.
This has been the case since the end of the 1st World War it's just that it takes a long time to sort out.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 10/12/2010 : 17:42
Don't apologise for agreeing with me Frank!


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