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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 29/03/2011 : 15:31
It's like if the school asks for £200 for a trip and you haven't got it, well, in Frankworld you don't let the child go, and we have been there, but what if every school trip is beyond your income for the whole time the child is at school, they become isolated and stigmatised, so your choices are "sponge" off the school (they offer to help if you really can't afford it but to have to ask year after year is hard) or get into debt. Now if you have 3 or 4 children all in school the whole situation becomes much harder.
 In every childs school life there are hundreds of pounds of hidden costs, PE kits, uniform, non uniform days, certain books , trips, food for cookery, school photographs, videos of  performances, music lessons,etc whilst it would be possible to say no to all of these things, it would make a childs life hell. Note that none of this is luxury stuff just the norm for most schools. When you are a one income family everyone of these outlays is a nightmare, pushes you into difficult decisions, and they come at you every week all year round.


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
Bodger
Regular Member


892 Posts
Posted - 29/03/2011 : 16:33
Belle, in Frank life, he is right. , just because the family cannot afford trips etc, the children, they do'nt go full stop, it will teach them  that poverty is'nt nice, i was offered camp holidays etc, but my parents had no money, so i did'nt go, but that created in me an attitude that if i needed something i had to have money, not that i relied  on hand outs, i went out and worked, all our children had school trips abroad etc. but if we had'nt had the brass they would'nt have gone. Hand outs only breed contempt for society, i'm not saying social payments are not needed, i would pay them only once i see no jobs advertised, How can you go to the employment office and say theres no job that suits me !, iworked on farms, i was a "brew boy", i served my apprenticeship,.

i got fired from three managerial positions through alchol, i ran a bar, was a works director, and finished up owning my own company.

Not quite sure what i'm saying, but work is an ethic that all people should try it at least once in their life.

 


"You can only make as well as you can measure"
                           Joseph Whitworth
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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 29/03/2011 : 17:07
Well said Bodger, anyone at the bottom has only really one way to go, up. There is plenty of help available for those who wish to better themselves and thats how it should be, There are of course others who are quite happy to stay at the bottom and rely on what is given to them, I believe that these are the ones who make the most noise.


thomo Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 29/03/2011 : 18:36
Bodger , unless I am mistaken " Frank Life" is a new term ...Great !

The only problem with your post is that I don't think our hero has had the chance to give his "Two-pennuth" on the subject of school trips yet  , and you might be putting words in his mouth ....

I'm not at all happy that you understood the giste of Belle's post  , but will let her answer (was she encouraging hand-outs ?....I don't think so ).

Your assertion that children need to be taught the value of money and work is correct , but they should also be enabled to have the oportunities that are on offer, if at all possible .

There is a lot of "missing the point" going on here ......Benefit fraud is a criminal offence and should be stamped out ....On the other hand there are lots of people who have to claim benefit  through no fault of their own  (ill health being one example ) To class all benefit recipients as scroungers (which seems to be the tone of this discussion ) is plainly stupid ! (Edit  ,later, please note my downgrading of this word , as prompted by Herb , and note that this was NOT intended to target any one individual .....It's just a statement of the obvious)

"Dogs in Mangers"  could easily spring to mind ......

Those who can least afford it are being punished for the excesses and failures of the greedy well off ........... Last weekend , 250,000 people took the time and trouble to let an out of touch  government know it .......Good on them .

PS The Tomlinson inquest is attracting my attention . (remember the "brave boys in blue" discussion.....?)

 

 

Edited by - Bradders on 29/03/2011 11:35:57 PM


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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 29/03/2011 : 21:10
Here we go AGAIN, did I read the word "stupid" in the above post?  That is a really "stupid" way to refer to comments made by other people and is not at all healthy dialogue on any topic.

 Frank world or Frank life may well be a fairly well balanced environment, many of his comments are taken out of context by the Frank bashers who let political stripes block their vision...but it does make for interesting reading, even matron likes it.


HERB


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 29/03/2011 : 23:29
Yes Herb , you are correct I should have used "Silly".or just plain "Wrong" ...I didn't mean to make it sound quite so so strong....Honest !...I apologise if it touched a nerve .

 

 


BRADDERS BLUESINGER Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 00:21
I think a lot of what's written on here is misread, indeed Frank mentioned misreading something on another topic, and i know I am also guilty of reading things that might not be there.
 I would not class myself as a Frank Basher, but I do stick up for myself which isn't easy against those who are so sure they are right, and so unable to see another point of view... nor do I have any political stripes blurring my vision, though whether that is true of everyone on here I cannot say.
 I can see exctly where you are all coming from on this "teach children they can't have everything" lark, and I agree with you, but and this really is the most important thing we can understand, the world has moved on since we were young.
I do think some of the views put forward on here are competely out of touch with the reality of today's world. If a family is in a low income bracket they get very little help at all, in fact it often pays them more not to work. This is the fault of the system but they should not be penalised for it.
Do you realise that schools do trips abroad nearly every year, often they are pushed as educational, containing content covered by the course, so the history students will be offered a trip to the battle fields of the first world war etc. Students doing Art will be taken to Italy to see the great masterpieces, Drama students will be expected to go to plays throughout the year to take notes and the school will do trips to London theatres English students mght go to Stratford, and so on. If your child sings or plays an instrument they will have to go where the band or choir is singing, if they are in a team they will have trips to pay for there and extra kit.
 Much of the content they need to research for their courses is to be found on the internet they are expected to have computers and memory sticks. To be able to afford to print things out and photocopy. To say no to all of these things would make a child a social outcast, and put them at a disadvantage educationally.
You are quite right the poverty stricken may get help with dental charges, prescriptions free school meals, and they may even cope with the schools well meaning constant enquiries as to why your child isn't going on the trip and the condescending offers of help. Though schools don't often offer all the money, so you are under even more pressure to pay out! It's those who are not on benefits that struggle.
The things we considered extras are now 'essentials', because people got rich enough to be able to buy them it became an assumption that everyone could, and then that everyone should, and those who couldn't went silently into debt.  

Edited by - belle on 30/03/2011 12:26:25 AM


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 06:44
"What I do know is that no one in this country is starving our Welfare State/System makes sure of that."  I've just read all the comments and this was the one that sprang out at me. First because it is wrong, see reports of neglect of geriatric patients in some institutions of dehydrated and starving old people because there aren't enough well-supervised staff to make sure that enough food and water is fed to maintain life, a direct consequence of under-funding and bad management. Second, if this is the criterion for adequate income, that someone isn't actually starving I suggest that some re-thinking is needed. Remember Scrooge? "Are there no workhouses or treadmills?" Dickens was as usual making social comment through his characters. Basing assessment of need on starvation is pure Scrooge.

There is of course a different level of assessment, malnutrition. It's a very complicated subject because malnutrition is common today at all levels in society and not necessarily as a result of low income, one can be 'well-fed' and overweight and still be malnourished. The early social investigators knew that inadequate income equals malnutrition and bad health but had great difficulty in proving it. The first man to nail the connection down was M'Gonicle in his 'Poverty and  Ill Health' Gollanz, 1936. Well worth reading for an insight into the problem. (Incidentally, Harold Macmillan was instrumental in making sure M'Gonicle got his book published, he was the former MP at Stockton on Tees where the study was done and used figures on minimum dietary standards in his book 'The Middle way' which he was writing at the same time.) The point being that this ground was covered 80 years ago but has still not sunk into the general knowledge on which policy-making should be based. Ask yourself why we have no central body addressing nutrition even now.

Richard is on the same track wnen he points out that relative deprivation is not always income related. However, given time to write a longer essay I could make a good case based on evidence for the relationship between the income gap and opportunity in society which is broadly the same argument. Anyone who thinks that the life-opportunities of a scion of the aristocracy are the same of a kid on a deprived state is living in cloud cuckoo land and could be described as being, at the very least, insensitive.

As always there is another level which needs to be addresses. Doctor Charles Webster addressed this in 'Hungry or healthy Thirties' (see Rare Texts on the site)  in which he proves that partial statistics based on averages were used in the inter war period to support the contention that 'things were getting better' and that it extended to direct manipulation of the statistics by the government MOH. When he gave me permission to reproduce his obscure lecture (For some strange reason geberal publication was hindered to the point where there is a suspicion it was actually blocked) he told me he was pleased that I was taking the trouble because he could see exactly the same fault in the use of statistics today.

The evidence is clear, low income and inadequate life-opportunities are connected. There is a link between poverty, malnutrition and ill health. To reduce this vital knowledge to the level where 'starvation' is the criterion isn't 'stupid', it is either wilful disregard of the evidence or ignorance.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 08:16
Belle school trips are getting out of hand, and it is a sign of the free spending years.  In the past a school trip was occasional and economical...for me it was a bus trip to York from Barlick.  Now (at least here) for example 15/16 year olds are being "sold" trips to China at $4,000+ and kids think they should be able to go.  Part of this problem is that tour operators go through teachers to sell the trips, giving them freebies and cash for "fronting " the trip as a school trip.


HERB


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 09:10
Stanley starving was only a figure of speech and you know it.
One of the main reasons we can't eliminate Poverty/Need is because we don't have enough cash. And the reason for that is because we spend what we have on stupid things like Heating Allowance for All, Free Bus Passes for All, Child Benefit for All,  Free TV Licences (not for All agreed) Christmas Bonus for Pensioners. If we don't get to Means Testing, soon the whole lot will collapse.
The daddy of them all of course is a Public Sector which has become so bloated, it can assemble 500000 people to travel to London to protest when the prospect of it being reduced to an affordable size is on the Agenda.
Bradders still hasn't grasped the concept of Ponzi Scheme which in 1947 was a good idea but in 2011 has become a liability, not through it's concept, but through Changing Demographics.
As for the jibe " Frank's World " you are all living in it, just look around you, at the Dirty Streets, the Poorly run Hospitals, Public Transport,  receiving back handed State subsidy covered up as  "The Bus Pass"
Sink Council Housing Estates, that have houses which are in an appaling state. Don't give me the c***  that everything is well in your World and it is Frank's which is wrong, because it's not.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 09:53
I do not see what you and Herb are not getting. The situation we have now is directly attributable to the Thatcher govt. The idea that we can run a society where elements in it are 300 times richer than others without problem is laughable. You are not going to tell me those at the top all got there by their own hard work, a large percentage of them are gangsters, liers, theives, and opportunists. The way the rich will pay over the odds for everything inflates the price for everyone else (including school trips Herb) increasing the gap. If you look back at History (not your favourite pastime I know, but essential if you are going to recognise trends) you will see it is this sort of economical environment that produces protests, riots, and even revolution.
Many of those protesting about spending cuts were not public sector workers but Tory middle England retired ladies woried about libraries and other services closing and that should ring some alarm bells in terms of who is supporting this Govt.
If you are cushioned by a comfortable existence it is easy to hold the point of view that all is going well, and the wasters and scoungers just need to shape up and this country will be back to what it used to be, but that is nonsense. There is no significant manufacture base, there are no significant jobs in agriculture, the service industries (something like 80% of all jobs today in uk)are facing decline due to cuts in peoples salaries, the population is on the increase, according to Andrew Marr in the census programme in 50 years time White English will be an ethnic minority in their own country (they already are in several major cities).
Faced with a crisis like this we have two types of people, those who grab what they can for themsleves and blow the rest, and those that see each other as brothers and try to pull together for the good of all. In the first instance it protects the individual, in the second the greater good.


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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 11:08
Come on Belle we are not missing the point and niether are you...we are in fact saying the same thing...read Frank's post above...he is not against helping those in need...but maybe we should use the bloated civil service to determine who is in need and spread the aid properly...instead of just taking the approach of sending the freebies to everyone.  In Canada we have a number of programs that are available to seniors below a set income level, child tax benefits decrease as income increases and so on.  To provide equal benefits to all regardless of need would require massive tax increases.


HERB


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 11:29
It is this Govt who have refused to means test benefits as "it would cost too much to do it" But back to something stated months ago, it is those who know they don't need bus passes etc and take them without paying anything back that are in the wrong here, it's the better off who need to support what the Govt can't do because it costs too much, and say ok if i get freebies I can afford then I pay something back elsewhere, I'm sure some are doing this and if so where is the problem? The attitude that  the Govt should sort it, is just the same attitude those at the botom have who don't try and help themselves.


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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 11:43
Belle it is simple for the govt to sort it...simply use income tax return information...they just don't want to do it for political reasons.  What you suggest if encouraged would carry to all other forms of taxation and benefits...let the people decide if they want the benefit?


HERB


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 30/03/2011 : 11:51
Inbetween the "Grabbers" and the the "Brothers" there is a third group that appears to be overlooked, and I believe that this group is larger than either of the other two, this is the group that still produces the stuff that sells and relies upon the skills and talent of its workforce in that seemingly insignificant manufacturing base. Here in Barlick we have lost the cotton trade, but we also have two of the areas main manufacturing industries operating in what were cotton mills, the town itself and many of those around here have numerous businesses that support them, these two have survived years of industrial unrest, financial downturns and changes of government. A large portion of British industry suffered badly due to disputes and this gave overseas competition an open door, shipbuilding and the motor industry were two of the worst affected, in my time at Cammel Lairds only one ship left on time, the type 42 that went to Argentina, the Hercules. My two charges of the same class, Birmingham and Coventry were 12 and 16 months late, three strikes per day on average. Fortunately this kind of disruption is now rare in manufacturing. Agriculture and the fishing industry have suffered much from "outside" influence, and purely as an observation, I have yet to see anyone from certain ethnic groups working in either.


thomo Go to Top of Page
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