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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 23/06/2011 : 20:04
Maybe he has more connections!


HERB


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 23/06/2011 : 22:05
What has been attracting my attention today is that military training may lead people to think in certain ways..indeed it would be odd if it did not. In order to condition a person to kill another in cold blood you would need to make them think in a certain way, to divest themselves of the ability to question the rights and wrongs of an action objectively.  In order to make someone follow orders unquestioningly you would need to condition them to have an  unfaltering loyalty to those in authority over them.  Presumably once someone has been modified in that way, they would take this character trait with them into civilian life once no longer in active service. 
It is this i suppose that is at the back of those statements older men used to trot out about " Bring back national service and that will sort them!" indeed blind adherence to discipline laid down by others might help some situations..but it's foundations lay in training people to be less than human, and do not lead to intellectual growth or independance of thought. Are we then saying that only some are allowed independance of thought..ie those in perceived positions of authority? We are living at an exciting time, when a new era is dawning, due to mass education, where the old feudal model, the old military model, the old church model with those who were literate and wealthy holding sway over those who were not, has gone...despite the attempts of fundementalists, or traditionalists, or military regimes to hold onto it.. What will fill the void?
 


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 23/06/2011 : 22:50


quote:
Herb wrote:
Maybe he has more connections!
Don't be silly !.....Oh ,but hang on , maybe it was a SECRET paper . In which case by mentioning it's existance , the law has been broken....no, surely not !

This smacks of  "Skipton Castle "....what fun !


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Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob


3044 Posts
Posted - 23/06/2011 : 23:00
Every time I go through Colne I have to admire the parking skills of this driver:

 

Car up wall 


===================
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www.bernulfsplace.co.uk
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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 23/06/2011 : 23:38
Yeah , but come on ,.....she did it before the earthquake  !

 


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 06:07
I like it and have admired it myself. Preston's garage?

Listened to a colonel from the United Services Institute this morning on World Service  making a (public) statement that the engagement in Libya was a classic case of mission creep. The forecast is that by September the cost to the UK will be £1billion. At the moment there is no sign of any credible exit strategy.

As for Afghanistan, Lord Stirrup (love the name!) had some interesting things to say. He pointed out that we are in exactly the same position the Russians found themselves facing. They declared mission accomplished after forming a new government and promising to finance the army and the civil police but when Russia hit the buffers this subsidy stopped and the power vacuum was filled by the 'subversives'. 

The coalition is going through exactly the same process and I think I heard the figure of $6billion per annum as the subsidy that will be needed to support the government forces. Recognise any similarities? How long will it continue? Who will fill any vacuum when the subsidy fails? How will 13 years of blood and treasure have altered anything? Remember me banging on and attracting flak from the 'our brave lads' brigade when I forecast this outcome?

On a seemingly disconnected topic, I am re-reading an old favourite of mine, 'A History of the Indians of the United States' by Angie Debo. (In case you are wondering, at the time it was written it was quite acceptable to call the native tribes 'Indians')  Still regarded as a sound text forty years after it was published. The story it tells is the way that western incomers applied their perception of society and human behaviour to the tribes and came to the conclusion that they were sub-human and fit for nothing but slavery and and exploitation. This view was still current in the first half of the 20th century. Debo's book demonstrates that in fact the tribes were different cultures wonderfully adapted to their circumstances, literate, civilised and in many repects superior to their agressors.

Think about what Western concepts are of civilisations like Korea, Vietnam, the whole of the Middle East and more specifically Iraq and Afghanistan. Can you recognise any similarities? The book was first brought to my attention by a tribal elder on a reservation when he pointed out the similsrities between the forced relocation of the tribes and the Highland Clearances in Scotland. Think Gertrude Bell in Mespotamia from 1920 to 1930, the root of the problems with modern Iraq, the destruction of the tribal and religious systems and the substitution of a clent king and western government.Think about the tribal system in Afganistan.

Perhaps it would be better if we stopped trying to impose our culture and 'civilisation' on other systems.  Worth thinking about.....


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 06:26
Price per barrel of Brent crude drops $8 overnight as 60 million barrels of oil is released from US strategic reserve and other sources to counter high price caused by OPEC not increasing production. Sounds desperate to me, how long can using reserves counter the problem of under-production? More to do with worries about faltering Western economies than any long term solution to my mind. Not a good sign.

I watched half an hour of tennis last night, Lleyton Hewitt? What struck me was the level of aggression being displayed. I thought it was supposed to be a game played for enjoyment. The yobbish behaviour of the group of yellow shirted supporters seemed to be rgarded as just a bit of fun. Sport can be very strange.....


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 10:05
''In order to condition a person to kill another in cold blood you would need to make them think in a certain way''

On this, I was reading a book the other day which noted research done by the US Military with returning veterans after WW2.  Only 15 - 20% of folk actually fired their weapons purposely at the enemy.  The remaining 80% or so either fired in the air, the ground or busied themselves doing something else.  Of those who purposely fired, 98% of them were traumatised by the killing.  It was noted that the remaining 2% had would have no problems killing anyone, either on the battlefield or at home.  As researchers noted, unavoidable and intense combat drives 98% of folk insane; the rest were insane before they got there.

 
So today, as certain sections of the press call for the killer of Millie Dowler to be subject to capital punishment, remember: someone has to do the killing.  Someone has to pull the lever and hang the person.  Any volunteers?

 
Richard Broughton



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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 10:57
quote:
Stanley wrote:
Perhaps it would be better if we stopped trying to impose our culture and 'civilisation' on other systems.  Worth thinking about.....
Very true. We think democracy is best and everyone else should share the benefits of the system, but we think it's best because it happens to suit us well at the present time and at our stage of development. That doesn't mean it's the best way for all other nations at their stage of development. It took a long time for the West to make democracy work as it does today. Recently in a radio discussion someone said how ancient Greece was the source of our democracies. Within minutes a lady emailed a response pointing out that in ancient Greece no women or slaves could vote, only free men were allowed a vote and that was about 8% of the population.

When we try nudging (phrase of the year in government) other nations towards our ways and militarily intervening in insurrections we have to ask ourselves why we are not doing the same thing in China. They treat their subjects very badly, ordinary people there get taken away by thugs working for the secret police and never seen again. There are anti-government protests on the streets every day. Yet our biggest companies are desperate to set up businesses in China, our universities set up `branches' there and our government wants to make it easy for them to do so. It all smells of hypocrisy and inconsistency.


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 17:18
When do you want it done Bruff, no fee, have this one on me!


thomo Go to Top of Page
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 18:15
''In order to condition a person to kill another in cold blood you would need to make them think in a certain way''!! Since there are some who have the idea that the brain of a "Military" person is different to others, there are some things to consider. It is said that we are all born innocent, so how could this be so?  The modern Sailor may have changed in appearance, but the conditions that affect his environment have altered dramatically, so has the way in which the modern Sailor is personally adapted to his environment, remember that it doesn't matter if his background was naval or not, when he signed on, he was just like the rest of us. This applies also to the other forces classed as "Military". I do not know what is asked of, for a recruit or conscript in other forces abroad to consider before signing on, but here in Britain there is a sufficient time period for a recruit to consider what may be asked of him. the possibility that he may be killed or have to kill in the line of duty, is just one thing that he must consider, and if he decides to go ahead, the good things he will learn far outweigh the negative side of his future. He will learn how to be a part of a team, he will learn discipline, he will be fit, he will be aware of personal hygiene, his mind will be able to adapt to his environment, he will become self sufficient and able to take care of himself, and others, for some there will be a trade to master and the ability to help, encourage and manage others will be learned. So what about being trained to "Kill in cold blood" this bit may apply to the elite forces in, the SBS, or SAS, but the blood will not be "Cold" when applied to the average service person for if he fails in his duty, it may well be that his blood will be being spilled, or it may be just "bad luck" if he has not seen the threat and been successful in countering it. Service personel are really no different to others, but have a different set of parameters to work to, this includes being able to "think outside of the box" a facility which is useful in any walk of life, Servicemen and Women may lose their lives in a cause not of their making, and whilst they are trained to be effective, I am sure that very few of them relish the idea of killing another, its part of the job and always a possibility.



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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 18:17
Stanley
Again you are missing the point on Afghanistan, what will happen is this.
The ANA and ANP without the restraining hand of the mentoring teams, will wipe out the Taliban. Don't forget they ( ANA ANP ) have been trained by some of the best fighting troops in the World, and they have a lot of scores to settle. Once we are gone there will be no Courageous Restraint and the Press will leave with the Troops so no reporting.  Karzai and his Brother will rule the roost by fear  just the same as the Taliban.
Can you not remember how easily the Taliban was tossed out of Kabul,albeit  with the help of the Northern Alliance. The Taliban don't fight, in fact the Taliban can't fight, we have used the wrong tactic in Afghanistan to achieve a victory ie Fighting Fair and to the Geneva Convention which believe me the ANA or the ANP won't.
The mission to Afghanistan was to prevent that failed state from becoming a safe haven for Terrorists. Mission Accomplished.

As for Mission Creep in Libya I would like to see an explanation of how we are not following UNSCR 1973 to the letter. To kill Gaddafi would be simple exercise if that is what is required, but alsa 1973 won't allow that. 

Richard the figures you have posted are impossible to check  they are little more than guess work, surprised that you posted them. Just goole the number of German Soldiers killed in WW1 and WW2 must have been some crack shots amongst the ones who did shoot straight. !!!

Thomo  you need to be careful you could be killed in the rush for the lever, the Majority of people in this country are Pro Death Penalty, and that is a FACT that No political party dare put to the test.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 18:26
Bradders 
If the paper isn't published , how come you got to read it ?

Sorry can't reveal that information it is Secret. 
Plus the fact you would not understand it, Insurgency and Counter Insurgency are difficult subjects, that can't  just be picked up on a casual reading.
Just look up Professor Wilkinson at St Andrews for an insight to Terrorism




Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 18:48


quote:
frankwilk wrote:




Sorry can't reveal that information it is Secret. 
Plus the fact you would not understand it, Insurgency and Counter Insurgency are difficult subjects, that can't  just be picked up on a casual reading.


I don't believe you .....Signed the Official Secrets Act , have you .?

If the answer to that is "yes" , then you have broken the law  already.....

As I said this has all the signs of the "Skipton Castle Affair "....remember that. ...?

A pompous ass "took his bat home" , because he couldn't prove what he'd said and stood on his dignity .....(we live in hope )


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 24/06/2011 : 19:10
Taking this matter one step further , Frank, if you have not signed The Official Secrets Act , but have been given access to classified information , you have broken the law , and so has your informant.....

So which is it ? 

Are you making it up , or are you telling all the visitors to this site that you are a spook ?


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