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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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 Posted -
03/06/2007
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11:46
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In this field, America comes out tops and in that country there are over 200 preserved vessels of all kinds. Our country on the other hand developed a "We wont be needing this again" attitude after several wars that were going to be the last! I once saw a film of perfectly good aeroplanes being bulldozed off the back of an Aircraft Carrier, no good asking for our pots and pans back then.
Of all the British Battleships that saw WW1, only one specimen survives, and although she a British built "Majestic" class ship, she belongs to the Japanese. The pre- Dreadnought "Mikasa" built by Vickers and launched 08. 11. 1900. She is now at Yokosuka as a memorial ship having served as Admiral Togo's Flagship at the battle of Tsushima in 1905. Built at Barrow in Furness at a cost of £880,000 with a displacement of 15,000 tons, OA length 132m & beam of 23.2m, her power was provided HP Triple Expansion engines developing 15,000 HP from coal fired boilers. The Americans also have a WW1 first generation Dreadnought, "USS Texas" preserved at San Jacinto, Texas, She is a New York Class ship built in 1912 and is 573' long and 27,000 tons. she was powered by Verticle Triple Expansion engines developing 28,100 HP. Her main armament being 10 x 14" guns in five turrets.
The largest surviving group of vessels of a single class are the American "Iowa" class Battleships "USS Iowa" is currently at the Naval College at Rhode Island, "USS New Jersey" is at New Jersey, "USS Missouri" is at Pearl Harbour and "USS Wisconsin" at Norfolk Virginia. Design characteristics are: 45,000 tons displacement, 887' OA Length, 108' 2" Beam, powered by steam turbines at 212,000 HP their main armament being 9 x 16" guns in three triple turrets. Also preserved is the "USS North Carolina" class name Battleship at Wilmington, North Carolina, The South Dakota Class Battleship "Massachusetts" is at Fall River Mass. and another ship of this class "USS Alabama" is at Mobile. At 35,000 tons she appeared in the 1992 film "Under Siege" with Steven Segal in her guise as USS Missouri. During this bit of research I came across another "FilmStar" another preserved ship. "USS Salem" a "Des Moine" class Heavy Cruiser, she was the one that posed rather badly as "The Graf Spee" in the film "Battle of the River Plate" and is now a Museum ship at Quincey, Mass, where she was built. So there we are, nine Battleships to date and all but one of them in America.
thomo
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softsuvner
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 00:01
RR
I stand by what I say about the Olympia. The Spanish American war had some overtones that would strike a chord today. The Battle of Manila Bay, which is what she is famous for, was fought against a smaller fleet of obselete vessels, hardly the "Nelson Touch". Mind you if the Spanish shore defences hadn't been asleep, it could have ended differently.
What makes her valuable, is that she is a pre-Dreadnought, a class of vessel obselete before the First War started (although she was re-gunned in 1916). She would have been no use in any serious naval engagement. After the war she was going to be scrapped, but a Philadelphia group took her on for restoration. To quote an American historian: "she has been on public view ever since........a memorial to the expansionist elements of American Pacific Policy at the turn of the century".
Malcolm
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Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 05:47
Sure agree about Battle of Manila Bay and US expansionist policies. Suspect the combination of A.T. Mahan’s The Influence of Seapower Upon History,1660-1783 and Teddy Roosevelt’s incumbency did the trick. US didn’t have a blue water fleet for much of the latter half of 19th Century. So when the strategic theory was articulated, the potential was developed and its application was inevitable.
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 21/01/2008 : 06:43
Good analysis John and I agree with it. There is of course a school of thought that states that the US was always imperialist. Westward expansion was simply empire building without having to cross water. When they reached the West Coast they looked North and South. Work it out .........
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 22/01/2008 : 04:47
HMS Caroline is an interesting and important preserved naval vessel in Belfast. Name ship of her class; launched 1914; served 4th Light Cruiser Squadron at Jutland. The vessel boasts a number of significant historical facts including: oldest commissioned RN warship afloat; only survivor of Jutland still afloat; 3rd oldest commissioned warship in the world. The condition of the vessel is basically sound. No longer carries original armament; the superstructure is much altered for her role as headquarters and training ship (RNVR); no boilers; Parson’s steam turbines still aboard.
Some good photos at:
http://www.bobhenneman.info/caroline.htm
http://nationalhistoricships.org.uk/index.cfm/event/getVessel/vref/430
Edited by - Ribble Rouser on 22/01/2008 05:07:52
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
Ribble Rouser
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Posted - 22/01/2008 : 13:14
Sorrows of Empire
Not exactly on topic...but this is a persistent theme in the thread:
Imperial activity that might well have begun with what Stanley refers to as westward expansion and certainly continued with the Spanish-American War, is of increasing concern to US citizens themselves. I have two close colleagues who claim to be politico/cultural ‘refugees’, professionals who have come to work in Melbourne because they find the foreign policy of the current and recent US regimes, and the attitudes of many fellow Americans, unconscionable.
The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic (2004) by Chalmers Johnson, Professor Emeritus at the University of California, is a cracking read. Johnson served in the US navy, with the CIA and became an expert of East Asian cultures and international policies. Sorrows of Empire deconstructs and critiques recent US foreign policy and makes interesting comparisons and contrasts with the Roman and British imperial experience.
The American Linguist and Activist Noam Chomsky, Professor Emeritus at MIT, has critiqued US foreign policy since the 1960s. He is better known and respected in Europe than the US, and is well worth a read. Chomsky is by far the most logical and accessible writer and speaker on matters social/political/cultural that I have encountered. Articles on foreign policy can be found at: http://www.chomsky.info.
This Canadian film about Chomsky is excellent: Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media (1992).
Postscript: I have just read that conflict in the Philippines did not end with the rapid defeat of Spanish in 1899. The Philippine Insurrectos, who had led a revolt against their Hispanic colonial masters, turned on their erstwhile liberators when it became apparent that the US simply wanted to take over the same colonial role. The Insurrectos saw the demise of the Spanish as an opportunity to declare independence. Instead they declared war. Insurrectos forces laid siege to Manila and fought for 3 years, resulting in at least 230,000 deaths, including over 4,000 US troops. Fighting ceased only when their leader, Emilio Aguinaldo, was captured. Aguinaldo survived and eventually saw his country declare independence before he died in 1964.
Main source: The Blue Afternoon by William Boyd (1993)
Edited by - Ribble Rouser on 22/01/2008 13:19:08
Edited by - Ribble Rouser on 22/01/2008 15:28:28
it's bums that count 'ere; not 'ats |
Tizer
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Posted - 17/11/2009 : 11:51
Rodney, Nelson and Revenge being scrapped at Inverkeithing , May 1949.
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Tizer
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 10:03
The two photos above are of Mikasa (I'm putting in photos for Thomo).
Aurora
Giorgios Averof
Cerberus
Huascar
USS Olympia
Edited by - Tizer on 18/11/2009 10:06:24
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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 18/11/2009 : 11:31
Cheers Tizer, I had a go last night but wasnt happy with the result, I posted the text yesterday, but when I looked at it this morning I wasnt happy with that either, so I deleted it and I will now re-do it. This text refers to the above ships in the order shown. Several of these ships were built here in Britain and that they have survived so well is a tribute to the men who built them.
Mikasa, Japan. Built by Vickers at Barrow in Furness, laid down 24. 01. 1899 and launched 08. 11. 1900, At 432' long and 76.2' wide of 15,140 tons she is preserved as a memorial ship at Yokosuka and is probably the oldest last remaining pre dreadnought battleship. On Walney Island there is a Street of shops named Mikasa Street.
Aurora, Russia. Built at the Admiralty shipyard in St, Petersburg 1879-1900. 416' in length and 55' in the beam she is now preserved in St, Petersburg close to where she fired on the attacking Germans in WW2.
Georgios Averof. Greece. A Battleship built in 1910 at the Orlando shipyard in Livorno, 459' long and 68.9' wide of 10,200 tons she was named after a National Benefactor and is now preserved at Faliron Bay.
Cerberus, Australia. A Monitor built by Palmers at Jarrow for the Royal Navy 1867-1869 length 225' beam 45', 3,340 tons she was transfered to Australia and sunk as a breakwater at Half Moon Bay Victoria in 1926, there is a plan to stabilise the ship and restore the remains.
Huascar, Chile. Built at Laird Bros Birkenhead 1865 at 1,180 tons and 219' long with a beam of 35.8'. She was built for Peru but captured by Chile in her early years, now resting at Talcahuano.
USS Olympia, USA. Gets quite a mention earlier in this topic. She was built at the Union Ironworks in San Fransisco and launched in 1892 length is 344', beam is 53' and she weighs in at 5,586 tons. She is preserved at Penns Landing on the Delaware River, Philladelphia.
That concludes the first batch of old ships, further details of which can be provided on request, or, type the ships name into your search bar and browse the plethora of results at your leisure.
thomo |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 19/11/2009 : 12:24
Like the other thread for civilian vessels, I am going to expand this thread to include all types of Naval Ships and boats. The next post is about a group of ships that are all on our own doorstep, mostly familiar, but there are still a few hidden treasures.
thomo |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 21/11/2009 : 14:27
HMS Gannet, Chatham UK.
This ship is a Doterel Class Sloop, built at the Sheerness Royal Dockyard at a cost of £39,581 for the hull and £12,889 for the machinery. She was laid down in 1877 and launched on the 31st of August 1878. She is 170' long and has a beam of 36' displacing 1,130 tons. Three cylinder boilers supplied steam to two single cylinder compound expansion engines giving her a speed under steam of 11.5 knots, she was also Barque Rigged. She was renamed HMS President as a training ship in 1903. She now survives as a museum ship at Chatham
thomo |
Tizer
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Posted - 21/11/2009 : 14:35
I'd posted a set of Thomo's photos here but he has now cracked the method of getting them into posts and added them himself (together with notes), so I've deleted my versions.
Edited by - Tizer on 22/11/2009 10:46:40
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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 21/11/2009 : 14:45
HMS Cavalier, Chatham, UK.
Retired C, class Destroyer built by J.Samuel Whites yard at Cowes on the Isle of Wight. She was laid down on the 28. 03. 1943 and launched 07. 04. 1944 at a length of 363' and beam of 35.75' she weighed in at 2,520 tons full. Two Admiralty 3 drum boilers gave steam to two Parsons geared turbines rated at 40,000 Shaft horsepower, top speed was a very respectable 37 nautical miles per hour. She now resides like HMS Gannet at Chatham in No 2 Dry dock, the birth place of HMS Victory.
thomo |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 21/11/2009 : 14:51
Thank you very glad Tizer, yes I have got the hang of it now, I will do the rest but your imput has been very helpful, how do you get multiple pics on like those above, that bit still eludes me. Thanks again. Thomo.
thomo |
Tizer
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Posted - 21/11/2009 : 15:07
I'm not sure how you are doing your single pics but I start a new post and click the `tree' symbol to bring up the dialog box to insert a picture. After one picture goes in then I click the tree again to insert the next picture. Once I've got them all in then I just click to `post new reply'.
If you are trying to do it like that you mightbe having a problem once you've inserted the first picture - you can't get the cursor in place to start on the next. The trick is this - when you open the `Post New Reply' box, the first thing to do is place your cursor at the top and then hit return several times. Now put the cursor back at the top and place your first picture. Once that is in the box, you should be able to place your cursor below it. As you put in pictures, try to make sure there are always `returns' below them so you can place the cursor. If there are other ways of avoiding the problem I'd be glad to hear them! Hope this helps. Tizer
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Tizer
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Posted - 21/11/2009 : 15:12
Just another thought Thomo in addition to what I said above. Even if you add the extra returns as I suggested, if you can't get space below your first picture to put in the next, click the picture then press your `down arrow' on the keyboard and see if this gets your cursor in position below the pic.
Edited by - Tizer on 21/11/2009 15:15:11
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TGTP, Ships, Naval, Steam.
