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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 14:58
Any way of killing an animal is traumatic and I have to agree with Belle, i have seen animals killed in emergency situations by bleeding to death and it looks quite peaceful, remember that opeming your wrists in a warm bath ws much favoured by Roman senators. If you think a 'humane killer', a captive bolt pistol is more humane look into the subject and the use of 'pithing sticks'. Nasty stuff! Also look at the arguments against the current method of slaughtering tens of thousands of chickens a day by stunning with an electrocution bath. Ever watched the process? I have and if the contortions of the chickens are anything to go by it's anything but humane. A lot of research is going into gas chambers instead. But whatever process it's still killing.

There was a big controversy shortly after WW2 when it was revealed by an investigative reporter, Manchester Guardian I think, that horses were being killed by having an electric pump strapped to an incision in their necks to bleed them to death so the flesh was whte enough to be passed off as veal. I remember particularly that the reporter said it was pitiful to see the poor animals standing there quietly as the blood was pumped from them. It struck me then that they weren't kicking and struggling.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 14:59
''And there is rarely smoke without some kind of fire''

 
That's what folk could say about every barking mad conspiracy theory throughout history.  Sometimes (very often) there is no smoke and there never was a fire. 

 
Look, population of Blackburn and Darwin, 137,000.  Muslim population 25%, or 34,000.  1200 mosques means 1 for every 30 muslims or thereabouts. 

 
A number so ridiculous I'm amazed anyone can give it an ounce of credibility. 

 
I don't know whether halal tradition is more or less humane than what we might choose to do.  I do know that perhaps the notion of the cutting of the throat as opposed to a bolt through the head might lead folk to think halal less humane as well, in Hollywood, when someone gets their throat cut there's a lot of thrashing isn't there, with blood, buckets of it.  A bullet through head by contrast is nice and clean....

 
The only time I've seen an animal of any size slaughtered for the pot was in Greece, when the farmer next door cut the throat of his teathered goat whilst we were tucking into our breakfast.  Didn't strike me as particularly inhumane.  In fact, the goat was no doubt happy with its lot out in the field 'till bang, it's throat got cut.  Halal or no halal, I'm not sure many of the animlas we kill for food are as content with life.

 
And that's where my concerns lie.

 
Richard Broughton



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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 15:08
It is always interesting though to hear the views of the people who live in Blackburn, maybe they have a different view, or are they all frugal with the truth? and where please did I write that there were 1200 mosques?

Edited by - thomo on 07/02/2011 3:10:26 PM


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Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 15:28
''I learned recently that the Town of Blackburn which for generations has been home to many of my family now has no less than 1200 Islamic places of worship,....''

 
I was taking this bit from your post of yesterday.  However, I do see that you don't say 1200 'mosques', rather 'Islamic places of worship'.  I took that to be a reference to 'mosques', though it may be you were referring to 'residences', which you mentioned later.  Though why I don't know.  Prayer meetings and study in the residences of Christians would not, as I argued, lead folk to conclude these were 'Christian place of worship', would it?

 
When I see '1200 places of....worship' in an English city of 130,000, and these being places of worship for only 30-odd thousand of them (i.e. one for every thirty), I smell a rat.  And I think some bloke or woman has at some time seen 10 muslims walking into a house, heard the Koran being chanted, prayers offered etc, and thought 'this is a mosque'.  They've told their mate, and they go 'yes, I saw this too'. 

 
And before you know it you have '1200 places of ...worship' in Blackburn.  Actually!  How many 'holes were there in Blackburn, Lancashire'?  I'm smelling a bigger rat now.......

 
Richard Broughton



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Steve B
Regular Member


89 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 15:41
I have no problem with the concept of a more humane way of butchering animals.  I do have a problem that because of someone's religious belief, they get special rules.


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 15:57
Please forgive me for basing my comments on what I was told by a gentleman whom I do not think for one moment had anything to gain by expanding upon what he believed to be facts. My comments on this subject to date are on something that I believe to be a concern to many of my fellow countrymen and I have the right to share their concerns. There is more to life than what is written in books or reams of statistics generated in some office, We all have the capability to see beyond the fog, how we use it is an individual choice, There are two main options for how we choose to live and think, one is academics and the other, experience. I have a fair degree of the former, which I find very usefull, but I have rather more of the latter which I find to be essential. My eyes and ears serve me well, the brain is still active and the frame in which these faculties abide still  responds to the various demands I make on it. To fully appreciate how people of other beliefs function you need to go to their homelands, and see for yourself. I have, have you?


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 19:58
A technical aside on humane slaughter (or human execution for that matter)...The air that all animals breathe is about 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen. Raising the nitrogen level by a few percentage points results in loss of consiousness - which is why you should never work with nitrogen gas in an enclosed space, you don't even know it's happening, you just peacefully go unconscious and will die if left in the nitrogen. This could be used followed by bleeding to slaughter farm animals. It has been suggested before but it needs those in the industry to commit themselves to change.


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 21:40
Stanley you wouldn't mistake Horse for Veal, Horse has a lot more Sinew than Veal, oh and it smells funny when being cooked.
Halal has just been associated with Islam because of the Hot Climate in the Middle East, no need for it here !!!
I need to look to see what Jews do for their slaughter houses. My undestanding is that the blood is drained to prevent the meat going off, like Jews don't eat Pork because it goes off very quickly with out refrigeration.
I think the North West has the biggest problem with immigrants, that other parts of the country don't have. I believe it is the ghettos that have built up in areas of Burnley, Nelson, Accrington and Blackburn that get people down.



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 23:36
Frank I would say both the jewish and muslim way of slaughtering meat began as a religious command not to eat blood. I have had it explained to me that in most other slaughter methods the blood of the animal enters the tissues on death, due to shock I think, and thus any impurities in the blood are passed into the meat we eat. Cutting an animals throat does not cause the same shock and the blood is drained out...rendering the animal clean to eat. I think it would benefit all of us to eat cleaner meat and as the animals seem to suffer less trauma it would benefit them too.
Frank the horse meat I have eaten was like sirloin steak...lovely!
The problems with cultures within cultures exists all over England, and probably Scotland too, I am looking forward with interest to the channel 4 documentary (Dispatches i think) which is due to go out soon, where they go undercover in Muslim schools.

Edited by - belle on 07/02/2011 11:43:44 PM


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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 02:24
I agree with Steve's post above, the law is the law for all .  If one wants to change the law to suit a particular religious group it is really simple, STAY or FIND a country with laws that suit them, do not leave home without knowing where you are going.


HERB


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HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 02:31
A point of interest there are 47 mosques listed in Blackburn and 60 churches. 

My argument is simple that churches are tax exempt is OK.  Private homes being used for religious teaching and classed as a place of worship to gain tax exemp status is not OK.


HERB


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/02/2011 : 03:24
Frank, I wouldn't mistake it but others did. That's how they got away with it. Remember it happened just after the war, people hadn't seen veal for years and would eat anything. I refuse to eat veal anyway, don't like baby meat.

Tiz. Apart from inertia in the slaughter industry, they don't like change, the main problem seems to be that they want speed. The faster they kill, the more cost-efficient the plant is.

As for criticisms of ritual slaughter. I've seen too much of the dirty end of the way we handle food and recycle it both into the human food chain and pet foods. It wouldn't be a bad idea to put our house in order before we pass opinions on others.The most trustworthy food I have ever found is anything certified as Kosher. This applies to the factories and restaurants as well. There is no more thorough inspector of cleanliness than a Rabbi on the warpath!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 03:04
Plaudits to the purse wielding granny who foiled a robbery attempt.


HERB


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 04:25
The Today programme on R4 is trying to find her. An impressive woman!


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
HerbSG
Senior Member


1185 Posts
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 10:05
In Toronto a shopkeeper caught a repeated shoplifter, hog tied him, put him in the back of his van and waited for the police.  The shoplifter made a plea bargain and was dealt with quickly.  The SHOPKEEPER was charged with assault and unlawful confinement, was in and out of court for 18 months, finally found not guilty.  Granny may want to remain anonymous for obvious reasons since they did not catch all the bad guys, also mbecause she could end up being charged withassault the way things go these days.


HERB


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