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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted -  17/01/2008  :  14:20
Sherman tank monument at Torcross, Devon, UK

Well, OK, this is a British Army thread and this is an American tank - but it is in Britain! And I wonder if its future is secure, as explained below.

The Sherman tank at Torcross, Devon, UK, has been kept as a monument to nearly 750 American service personnel who were lost to enemy action during the training exercise ‘Operation Tiger’ off Slapton beach in April 1944. Visitors come to the area to view the Tank, and it is of particular significance to Americans who come to pay respects to the friends and relatives lost in 1944.

The tank, lost during Operation Tiger, was purchased for $50 from the US government and then recovered from the sea by Ken Small and placed in the Torcross Car Park.

While looking for information on the Internet to accompany this tank photo I found a local authority document titled "Report of Head of Property Services - TORCROSS CAR PARK – FUTURE OF SHERMAN TANK" dated 4th Novemebr 2004

It says "there would not appear to have been any formal agreement to place the Tank here and it is likely that this was based on a verbal agreement. Ken Small subsequently maintained the Tank and spent a huge amount of time explaining the history to visitors. Sadly, Ken Small died earlier this year and the ownership off the Tank has passed to his son, Dean Small. Dean Small has been in dialogue with Council officers for some while now about the future of the Tank. In particular he has raised concerns regarding insurance to cover potential claims by third parties if suffering injury or damage relating to the Tank."

The conclusions of the report are: "The options have been set out in the report and whilst it would be possible for the Council to support Dean Small’s proposals, this would not be in accordance with the Council’s asset management plan to reduce liabilities in respect of non core assets. In addition, to do so would not directly support the Council’s priorities in respect of specific targets or measures. As a result, officers are recommending Members do not take on any responsibilities in respect of the Tank."

I wonder what will happen to the tank? To my knowledge it is still there, but will it remain there? Having been under the sea so long I guess the condition is bad and therefore its main value is as a monument at Torcross rather than as a museum piece.

There is a panoramic picture featuring the tank at Torcorss here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/panoramas/torcross_tank_360.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/panoramas/torcross_tank_360.shtml

There are details of Operation Tiger here:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq20-1.htm
and here:
http://www.slapton.org/indextiger.htm



Author Replies  
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 17/01/2008 : 17:34
Elfin safety......  it's no more dangerous than a public statue or a lamp post.  Mad......


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Anni
Regular Member


634 Posts
Posted - 17/01/2008 : 19:31
But I bet someone, somewhere is now checking their insurance policies to make sure the councils are OK if someone climbs a lampost during a night on the tiles, falls off and injures themselves Laughing


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 19/01/2008 : 11:27
I've emailed the chairman of the Stokenham history society (near Torcross) to see if he can tell us what the future of the tank might be. If it disappeared, there would be a lot of upset Americans who lost relatives in Op Tiger and like to visit the tank and think of them.

About a year ago my wife and I sat and ate our Cornish pasties on that bench behind the tank. It's a good spot to contemplate what happened out there in 1944 when the E-boats got amongst the American landing craft during their practice.

Tizer


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 07:39
No Elfin Safety in those days.......  Hostile E Boats would be banned.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Doreen
hippies understudy


429 Posts
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 08:04
How can a council be so petty ,and childish.
Is there some hidden ulterior motive behind all this i ask?


Dordygail

always the one to make the best of things.

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softsuvner
Regular Member


604 Posts
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 10:57
This puzzles me. On the front at Southsea, outside the "D Day Museum", there are two tanks, a Churchill and a Sherman , sitting on the verge with no more protection against the public than the one at Torcross. They are between a road and a footpath and thousands of people walk past them every year. Nobody seems concerned at the H and S implications so far. You would have to be a pretty determined vandal to damage a tank after all!

Malcolm


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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 12:53
Today I received an email reply from Jonathan Ansell, chairman of the Stokenham history society (near Torcross), in which he says:

"As far as I know the future of the Sherman tank at Torcross is secure although I'm not sure who has picked up the bill for the insurance. If you look on the tank website http://www.shermantank.co.uk/home.ikml there is a contact address where you might be able to find more information."

 The Sherman tank web site did not come up when I searched on the Web, but it is detailed and worth looking at. The site is run by Dean Small who owns the tank. There is a Roll of Honour listing 612 dead or missing American servcemen. There is a plan to make a proper memorial on the tank's site with a list of the dead. Donations can be made on the site.

So it looks like the tank is secure for the near future!

Tizer 


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softsuvner
Regular Member


604 Posts
Posted - 20/01/2008 : 18:56
This is a photo of one of the tanks at Southsea, the other is a Sherman. As you can see, there is no deal of protection from the public.

Churchill Tank

Hopefully these two, and the Torcross Sherman can be left for the time being.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 21/01/2008 : 06:59
When you consider that we allow 40 ton wagons to drive round the middle of towns the 'insurance problems' of a stationary tank on a plinth would seem to be miniscule in comparison.  Bureaucracy gone mad I reckon.  Don't be deceived, this problem could rear its head again, the underlying jobsworth attitude gets stronger every day.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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karlelden
Regular Member


78 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2008 : 03:36
A bit off the subject here, but the early Shermans (I think until some time in 1943) had interesting engines. I ran across one in an automotive museum near my home here in Minnesota, and recognized it immediately as the venerable and ubiquitous Chrysler 6 cylinder which appeared in everything from farm tractors to cars and trucks in the 1930's through the 1960's.  Back on the farm, we had two tractors and one truck with that engine.  However, in the Sherman, they linked five of them together in a star pattern, geared to a common drive shaft.  30 cylinders. Crazy!  I think there were several thousand of them made, but they were difficult to work on in the field, so finally they were replaced by a Ford 12 cylinder. They had tried a couple other engines also, among which was a 9 cyl radial Continental aircraft engine.
I suspect if you plug "Chrysler A 57" into Google, you'll come up with some information.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2008 : 06:20
We had gun towers in my days in Anti/tank.  I think they were a Honey tank with the turret taken off.  They had two Cadillac V8 engines on a Hydramatic drive.  Handy thing was you could run on just one engine and save a bit of juice.  Later on we got something called a Stuart?


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2008 : 06:29
Just had a look on Wykepedia and it was the American M5, called the Stuart by us and also called the Honey because of its reliability.  So I forget what the more modern version was that we had in the British Zone in Germany.  In Berlin we used Austin 3-tonners as towing vehicles because they could cope with any terrain we had in the city.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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