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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2011 : 16:05
Now then, I thought the news story about the boy and The Guardian would flush out some interesting comments! I've never been a Guardian reader and don't know what's in its pages now, so thanks for the warning. When I switched from my earlier career to work in a big publishing company around 1990 I found myself (relatively speaking) as an oldie in a big office full of 20-something Guardian readers. Talk about culture shock! At that time I read the Monday to Saturday issues of The Times and had to suffer a lot of criticism and cheek for doing so. They considered it as `in the pocket of the Tories', which is funny considering it later supported New Labour. Their comments annoyed me because I'm not a supporter of any political party and I read that paper because I believed it had the best coverage of news. Anyway, it's good to hear of a 9-year-old who wanted to read a newspaper, whichever it might be!


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2011 : 18:56
Request  on Wadebridge Freecycle today .......
"Wanted ..Magnolia paint or white  , for Mother-in -Law "

.....Honest !


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 05:33
Brad, in The Truth according to Darling he alleges that it was Blair's idea to meet Gadafi in a tent, he said it would play better in the media. Figures.....

I used to buy the Guardian every day and the Observer on Sunday. Over the years standards dropped and about seven years ago I decided that they weren't worth the money. My news alerts come mainly from the World Service these days, much wider and more reliable coverage and reliable. They often report domestic news that never surfaces on the main channels. During an oil crisis I heard a report from Rotterdam with the manager of the biggest oil refinery in Europe and when asked about the oil shortage he asked "What shortage?" Turned out that his storage tanks were full for the first time since the refinery was built and there was a queue of loaded tankers in the estuary. The oil companies had seen the crisis coming and filled their boots. Never reported anywhere else.

I was told a wonderful secret yesterday. I'll tell you what it is as soon as restrictions are lifted!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
mporter
Regular Member


978 Posts
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 05:47
Restrictions should be lifted soon xxxxx


Margaret Porter
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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 09:36
Marvellous discussions this morning on the Today radio programme about the riots, their causes and what can be done. Lots of good stuff but I wonder if the politicians were listening? A point that kept on being raised is that it's no good criticising the folk on the street if the politicians and bankers etc are gross materialists and don't respect the laws and regulations. One participant quoted a Jamaican proverb: "If the head of the stream is dirty, all the stream will be dirty".


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 10:30
Well put.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 07/09/2011 : 05:10
I listened to it as well Tiz and thought what an informative discussion it was. I've referred to it in the Politics thread, also the first Reith Lecture. There were some wonderful passionate responses that went directly to the heart of the problem. Question is, were our Lords and Masters listening? If they were, did they understand?


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Tardis
Regular Member


453 Posts
Posted - 07/09/2011 : 14:34
http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis/hong-kong-hsbc-can-come-home

Looks like the threats are firming up ahead of the report next week.

It would be a great loss of tax to the Treasury if they left, and by leaving I only mean that their HQ will be domiciled under that tax regime rather than UK, and thus will only pay taxes on wholly UK staff and UK generated profits, there would be no additional pro-rata stuff.


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Tardis
Regular Member


453 Posts
Posted - 07/09/2011 : 14:47
I heard the debate too, and whilst I find myself agreeing with the comments about greed and the need to "consume more" the law is equally applicable for those people who break it.

The riots appear to have been criminality, carried out overwhelmingly by those who are already on the outskirts of society by deeming not to follow this law.

The fact that the police were unprepared for the event, and may have fueled the "we can't be caught" approach should also be factored in.

You see the same in the town. There is a fine for dropping litter than can be imposed, but people do it because they think that they can't be caught and other people just ignore it because "its not my job" and shake their heads. It "is" their environment.

Some of the arguements that came out of the debate were very near to conflating several unrelated issues and extremely unhelpful if you wish to bring people within the society that "you" want.

If you beat people continually with sticks, because you don't give them the ability to understand why they are being beaten with sticks it will eventually breed resentment.

Why does the Law only have the facility to impose "fines" on those people who have no resources to pay the fine? Why is there no follow up?

The only good thing that came out of the riots in my opinion were those people who were willing to stand up and protect their communities, almost like vigilantes without the violence, because the officiers of the state had ceeded the streets to the rioters. Society is only as strong as those communities, because if you don't share those values then you will not stand up for them, and then don't be surprised if those authorities will "fail".


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Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 07/09/2011 : 16:26
I'd agree with most of that, but I don't think folk drop litter in the main because they think they can't be caught.  This suggests some judgement on the part of the litter bug, and by extension any other wrong-doer - the person who robs, puts a window through, has a punch-up in the street and so on.  It suggests I guess, that I don't do these things because my judgement is that I might be caught.  But I never make that judgement.  Simply, I'm not a litter bug, a vandal or a robber, so it never occurs to me to have a sneck round when I see a tempting lap-top in an unlocked car, clock no camera or policeman etc and so nick it.  Or drop some litter.  Some folk do all these things though, and so the question is why?

 
Essentially, I guess I'm arguing the threat of sanction has minimal effect on the propensity for quite a lot of wrong-doing.  Which of course is the typical wishy-washy stuff expected of my sort. 

 
Richard Broughton 



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Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 07/09/2011 : 20:00
There's one form of law-breaking that many people indulge in, often on most of the days of the year: breaking the speed limit when driving on public roads (especially on trunk roads and motorways). We criticise the citizens of other countries for their corruption, laziness, incompetence or whatever and then get into the car and show no disregard for the speed limits. This must send out a bad message to children as they grow up. "Look, kiddies, it's easy to break the law, you don't even get caught".


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 07/09/2011 : 23:43
Peter , this one is on your patch.........

I don't know the full details of the case  , but I have the feeling that to put a woman in prison for (upto) 9 months for driving up the M5 in the wrong direction , has to be questioned .

She was drunk ,and susequently pleaded quilty,  but the reports also say that she was in a dreadfully distressed mental state at the time ..

What good does a custodial sentence do to someone like that....... ?

There is no need to "send out a message to other  drink-drivers ".

Having heard reports of his judgment  , I have the feeling that the judge involved was mostly worried about his own standing....(something to do with him being remiss if he did not put her in choky....Mmmm)

Edited by - Bradders on 07/09/2011 11:49:56 PM


BRADDERS BLUESINGER Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/09/2011 : 05:04
The people who drop litter and fail to pick dog grap up aren't thinking about getting caught, they are just not thinking about anything apart from themselves. With some it is an automatic habit.

I agree Richard and the reason is you were imprinted with honesty by the adults who reared you by example. That could be where much of the trouble stems from.

The people in the Today debate weren't lawyers, they were ordinary people who were voicing opinions on issues which they were passionate about. As such, they were all helpful, they were voices straight from the cutting edge of society. After all, they were self selected, they took the trouble to attend the debate and asked to comment on the riots. Therefore any comment they made was valid even if they strayed from the subject.

What grabbed my attention on Tuesday was a burned out motorcycle in King Street. Not the usual sort of litter! Yesterday it was a gap in the hedge near the footbridge over Butts Beck into Valley Gardens. Someone must have been very close to going over the edge. Never seen it as dangerous before but it wouldn't harm to put a short Armco barrier there.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/09/2011 : 05:32
"It would be a great loss of tax to the Treasury if they left" Forget it, they are crying wolf as usual. This is wearing thin, the large institutions are in London because it is the best placed financial centre in the world in terms of time zones and the amenities of London, not because of a liberal tax structure.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 08/09/2011 : 11:40
Bradders, can't find anything about it in the local papers. Perhaps it was a different part of the M5. We've got to remember that she could have killed a lot of people by her actions.

Stanley, I agree about London and the financiers. Also, the equivalent people in New York have said they would welcome the chance to take the places of any who leave London. Mrs Tiz and I have run our own business for the last 15 years. It's been a small business and we've only earned a very modest amount, though we've paid those who worked for us well. If we'd been earning the big money and been on a higher tax level we wouldn't have left the UK just because of higher tax. If we'd been earning that much we'd have been happy to see a higher proportion of our earnings going to tax to help support the NHS etc. The UK is a great place to be and my main quibbles with this country are related to the behaviour of...guess what...big business! But then, that's not much better elsewhere.


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