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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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 Posted -
14/11/2010
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06:26
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NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.
Follw this LINK for last version.
Stanley Challenger Graham
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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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frankwilk
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Posted - 19/12/2010 : 08:32
Stanley do you have more than your parents had ?? In Health, Wealth, and Welfare ?? That is the gist of why I say we are all better off than our parents or previous generations. I don't think I need facts to prove that, just look around you.My comment with regards to rose tinted specs was because, everyone seems to think it was better then !! It wasn't . You commented the other day about British Steel it was the first company to lose a Billion Pounds of Tax Payers money, it was a mess. The goverment tried to buy votes by building two Steel works instead of One. So we ended up with llanwern and Ravenscraig instead of expanding Anchor !!!. The Railways had become a political football for ASLEF and the NUR. Rail has never been Great and it never will be again. It is simple economics, Development costs can never be recovered by passenger revenue, on a commercial basis it won't work. If you are saying it will be better run by the State what would you base that on ?? A railway for a Social reason ?? not everything is profit and loss but the alternative didn't work in Russia !!!! nor did it work in France Strikes for Pensions are now the norm, politics again promised what it couldn't deliver.
The NHS has to be thrown up in the air Why because it is a monster it can't cope with 2010 working with a 1948 ideal fiddling at the margins will never work it has been tried before. The changes that are required need to happen now, not in ten years time. Back to borrowing/debt the NHS was swallowing the money the State was borrowing, hence the national debt was increasing. PFI was also increasing the debt for the future, here's your new hospital we will borrow a couple of hundred million to pay for it, never mind we will have been voted out before it has to be paid for. I don't proffess to have the answers and I know neither do you have any answers, except the past I don't think we had a NHS in the past !!! in 60 years it hasn't evolved very much.
So we have to live with what we have, we have a choice between Conservatives or Socialists the Liberals have lost the plot and have reverted to fluffing around.
In life there are People who are Movers and Shakers, People Who Won't Go, People who Can't Go ( because of the Past) and Fellow Travellers ( the majority ) who decide which way we should go when they exercise their vote.
Cat I also agree with what you say, but what is to be done about it ?? that is the question.
We have what we have, First past the post or a Coalition Goverment which at the moment is just hanging on in.
Now this Gerry Robinson fellow who people speak about with answers to the NHS. Is he not just another guy on the sidelines with no Responsibility for what he advocates ?? and no proof that it will be better. At least we can vote MPs out, not that it changes much but it is some minor accountability.
Edited by - frankwilk on 19/12/2010 08:40:47 AM
Frank Wilkinson Once Navy Always Navy  |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 19/12/2010 : 09:02
I thank God for the 'monster' that has looked after me and countless millions all my life. Glad to see you read what I posted about Harold , Llanwern and Ravenscraig. Rail has never been great? Over to you Ted, try to educate him....
Stanley Challenger Graham
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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
HerbSG
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Posted - 19/12/2010 : 10:10
Why do I get the feeling that complaing about anything government related is all wrong all the time? The NHS is probably as screwded up here as in the UK..because it is basically free..and therefore over used and the system not able to keep up with demand, the providers always scrambling to keep up. BUT railways, over the past 5 years I have travelled about the UK by rail and found the service, for the most part, clean. comfortable, efficient and economical. All of that with only one issue when a train was cancelled because a crew member failed to show up for work..NOW THAT IS DUMB!
As a P.S. I understand Frank's position, he obviously enjoys a good/fair debate, I do find that some of the replies become more of personal attacks rather than a constructive exchange of view.
HERB
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catgate
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Posted - 19/12/2010 : 11:31
quote:
frankwilk wrote:
Cat I also agree with what you say, but what is to be done about it ?? that is the question.
We have what we have, First past the post or a Coalition Goverment which at the moment is just hanging on in.
What is to be done is what was done in France at the close of the 18th century.
Our current system of government is not really democracy, it is a bastard form of devolved monarchy, where the rules are created by a small coterie of loyal yes men beholden to a single leader by virtue of his patronage. This patronage being granted in the first place for favours previously received. All the tinkering with grand electoral reform is just so much hogwash that will change nothing of consequence, but may alter the direction and position of the smoke and mirrors, for effect only.
If you look back in the history of our sad little isle you find that the top men, the Barons, Earls, Lords, Sirs were given these titles and lands in exchange for services received. Such as saving the kings life in battle, paying off some of the kings debt., lending the king a spare wife, giving him a comely daughter, Even laying down your cape in a puddle etc etc. The exact same thing goes on today. How many of the occupants of the upper house are there because of the debts owed to them by a prime minister? How many ministers in the lower house are ministers because of some form of unquestioning support of a potential prime minister? How much of the government of this country is for the benefit of those occupants of Westminster who are likely to look after discarded MPs and civil servants?
The result of all this distorted nepotism is the squandering of the money, taken from me by force/menaces, on schemes designed for the benefit (directly or indirectly) of the denisons of Westminster and their paymasters.
The seasonal saying about turkeys not voting for Christmas is most applicable here because those turkeys (and geese) in Westminster will not vote for any system that is not in their interest. So the only way to alter the system is to remove the obstacles to alteration in the most effective way.
I am in no way advocating wholesale slaughter and bloodshed, such as occured in France, but unless the current charade is consigned to history somehow there is literally no hope for any kind of moral government in this country....and remember we were "the Mother of Parliaments".
Every silver lining has a cloud.
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Tizer
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Posted - 19/12/2010 : 12:54
The following are general comments and not aimed at any specific post or OG member...
I want to write a few words about the NHS because I've been out of the loop for a few days...while Mrs Tiz and myself were both being treated by the NHS on consecutive days in different hospitals, me having an angiogram for suspected heart trouble and she having minor surgery to her hand to remove a `foreign body'. We've both got nothing but praise for the excellent treatment by doctors and nurses in clean and comfortable, modern wards and op theatres, doctors and nurses who made difficult journeys in heavy snow and freezing temperatures to get to work, maintained their good humour, boosted our confidence in their abilities, tended our every need, checked that we and the other patients didn't have MRSA and didn't get MRSA, checked and double checked every medication and procedure, repeated all instructions knowing we weren't taking in information very effectively, fed and watered us, cleaned up after us...and still smiled and even laughed at my lousy jokes.
Please, please don't criticise the National Health Service, because these people don't deserve it, we need to praise them. If you must criticise, direct your comments against the adminstrators and politicians who need to make sure that money is well used and organisational systems are efficient. But remember that the NHS is one of the biggest organisations in the world and has millions of patients to handle at any one time. And if we improved the education of our children we might be able to supply ourselves with more doctors and nurses instead of having to import them from abroad.
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belle
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Posted - 19/12/2010 : 13:28
I agree with a lot fo what you say Tizer, certainly the people working in the health service are on the whole very wonderful dedicated people..your last point is not quite what I understand to be the point... our Dr's and nurses aren't coming from abroad because our young people aren't educated enough to train as Doctors and nurses .. I know at least two newly qualified nurses who can't work....there must be another reason why we import!
Life is what you make it |
handlamp
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Posted - 19/12/2010 : 14:39
Well said Tiz.
Stanley, I've been trying for the last year!!! Any rail expert will agree that by the 1980s BR, in spite of being dogged throughout its life by political interference, was the most efficient in Europe. I worked under both systems between 1941 and 1983 and am convinced that efficiency improved under BR. Under the present privatisation, I have no doubt that a vertically arranged administration, be it private or public, would greatly improve matters.
Under BR we modernised both major main lines with a minimum affect on travel, unlike today's periodical shutdowns and major delays from over-running etc. The money thrown at the privatised system since privatisation was never made available to BR.
Edited by - handlamp on 19/12/2010 3:06:58 PM
Ted |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 20/12/2010 : 05:59
Catty, I agree with everything you said. It all went wrong when the Saxons came in, organised the country into shires and manors and started what was to become the feudal system by removing the common rights and making money out of the peasants, up till then they could go where they wanted, gather fuel and food and shoot the odd rabbit or deer.
Tiz, I agree with you as well and paradoxically I think Belle is right as well. Like her I don't understand why qualified nurses should be out of a job. Only thing I can think is local situations and the neglect of some areas of treatment plus the fact that all the trusts are looking at massive cut-backs in real terms over the next few years despite government protestations to the contrary.
Ted. Have you read 'Fire and Steam', Christian Wolmar's book on the railways? Excellent objective overview of the railways. Well worth a read. I was listening to a piece on the new high speed line yesterday and it made a lot of sense. The main problem isn't overall capacity but the inadequacy of the main line services like London-Birmingham which can only be cured by more capacity on a new line. Under the old BR system we would have had a centralised authority who could look at the overall traffic picture but under theTory's scewed up 'privatisation' which was designed to get the responsibility for transport off the administration's back and on to the market, nobody was looking, they were all looking after their own lines and working out how to get more and nore subsidy out of the government. The consequence is that the taxpayer pays more subsidy and has less control. That's what happens when you leave go of the reins on what Nye Bevan called 'The commanding Heights of the Economy'. The root cause is abdication of responsibility which is exactly what privatisation is.
So, we have Catty's outdated system being incompetent and throwing essential services to the 'Market'. (Sorry Catty, not your system but you know what I mean!) The market then does what it does best, makes money which is sucked out of the system into the shareholder's pockets. The financial system sees this as a result, the government feels they have done a 'good thing' and meanwhile, down here in real life, we see brilliant institutions sinking under the weight of the task and calling for government help. Think rail and energy. Both commanding heights, both needing more and more government money to keep up and a government that puts in that subsidy willingly because they know it's the only way out. Here's the clever bit, they have a new mechanism, instead of throwing a wad of cash at the supplicant they give them permission to levy the taxpayer/user by price rises above inflation. Clever stuff but ask yourself where the money comes from. We have all the pain and none of the control. That's progress?
Actually my attention today is focussed on the fact that Daugher Janet and her family are en-route to Derbyshire via Manchester. I want no major snowfall and a safe journey for them.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Another
Traycle Mine Overseer
6250 Posts
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Posted - 20/12/2010 : 07:32
Tiz, Belle, I agree the NHS does not deserve all the crap thrown at it.
Interesting reaction from my own GP the other week to the proposals to have them managing all first level treatment services. He's quite young and forward looking but feels very strongly that his vocation is treating people directly and not acting as a well paid care manager. Tells me many of his collegues feel the same.
So it looks like it will be the medically incompetent and those looking for even more money that are to be the lynchpin of our new services - nothing much likley to change then. Nolic
" I'm a self made man who worships his creator"  |
Tizer
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Posted - 20/12/2010 : 11:41
Belle, I don't know why your newly qualified nurses can't find work - perhaps it's a mismatch of funds and people locally? We are facing a severe shortage of nurses because (1) we have been relying on many unqualified staff in jobs that should have qualified people, (2) many qualified nurses will be retiring in coming years, (3) the number of nurses qualifying is falling, and (4) the need for medical services is expanding partly due to the increasing proportion of older people in the population and partly to the greater expectations of younger people for higher levels medical treatment (not to mention the prevalence of obesity).Have a look at what the Royal College of Nursing has to say here.
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belle
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Posted - 20/12/2010 : 13:32
I am not convinced about obesity causing extra demands on health services,if you consider that in the war years most people smoked, they will still be goign through the stystem with circulatory and related probs in old age, and the huge epidemic nowadays of over indulging in alcohol, not to mention the increase of speed and amount of traffic causing more accidents and the fact that smaller and smaller babies can be kept alive who will then need health care all their lives, I would say obesity is not the biggest problem the NHS faces.
Life is what you make it |
handlamp
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Posted - 20/12/2010 : 14:56
Stanley, I wish we could compel Frank to read Woolmar's works over the Yuletide and then he might realise the error of his ways.
Nolic,
I don't think your GP is the only one that feels that way, I'm afraid it's re=organision based on dogma and little else.
Ted |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 21/12/2010 : 06:06
Ted, it gets worse, I raided the Vatican Library yesterday and got out some biographies. Manny Shinwell, Ernest Bevin, Nye Bevan and Frank Cousins. I thouugt I'd re-acquaint myself with men of principle! As for Woolmar, glad you have read him, was it you who put me onto him in the first place?
I put myself in the hands of the Monster NHS yesterday at the local med centre. Ten minutes walk from my back door. Annual diabetes clinic, blood tets taken, urine goes in this morning. Everything checked, lack of Pneumonia jab noted and given to me. BP taken. Twenty minutes of individual attention to the highest standard and no money changed hands. Wonderful!I fear Ted is right about the question of GP substitution for Area Helth authorities. It wilkl be a goldmine for the management gurus, will encourage private provision of essential back-office services and will not save any money. Classic example of smasing what is there, throwing the pieces up in the air and walking away while they fall. Big advantage for government? Simple, they can blame the GPs when anything goes wrong. 'Not me Guv.' syndrome.
If I was to quote 'Nightmare', 'Crisis' , and 'Chaos' I think you would know what has caught my attention. I have news for the people in London (where there is no snow) the country is not in crisis, transport hasn't ground to a halt and 99% of people are just getting on with their lives. Strange how Gatwick seems to be doing so much better than Heathrow where one fall of less than a foot of snow has paralysed operations. Could it be that BAA are incompetent? Could it be that the operators didn't ask questions about silly little things like keeping runways and standings clear? I saw BAA's spkesman saying that they would learn lessons.... Oh no they won't. They will just do the minimum necessary to get the media off their backs and then sink back into torpitude until the next snowfall. As for the media it's pure hysteria to boost viewing figures. The Met weather forecast is no better, they are using the same descriptive language. Why don't they simply report the weather forecast without the matey remarks like "Wrap up well" or "Be careful driving to work". Sorry but this London-centric reporting is inaccurate scare-mongering and has nothing to do with what is actually happening in the country.
In case anyone is interested, the Eagles have landed in Derbyshire after an uneventful 12.000 mile journey with no problems. It will never make the headlines!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 21/12/2010 : 06:57
Sorry to go on but arguments in Parliament about the difficulty of importing rock salt into the country. The last time I heard we had virtually inexhaustible stocks of rock salt in this country. I remember hearing the manager of the Winsford Mine being interviewed during the summer and he said that their problem wasn't producing enough salt but storing it on site. He said that all that was needed was a co-ordinated plan to mine salt in good weather and stockpile it at strategic locations throughout the country. This is of course what used to happen in the days before the bean-counters clamped down on 'Unnecessary' stocks and advocated Just in Time strategies as used in industry. This way we get material with a high (85% average) salt content and not the inferior grit (about 25% salt content) which we are importing. Too simple a concept for accountants to grasp?
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 21/12/2010 : 09:44
Just heard Ronnie Renald whistling in Adelaide! He's still alive!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
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