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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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 Posted -
13/06/2005
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19:06
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I was asked today abbout books on the more esoteric side of WW2 and said I'd put some titles up.
Books on strange weapons and systems; 'The Small Back Room', 'The Secret War', and one on camouflage and deception, I can't remember the title. Best book on tanks is 'Tank', by Patrick White. New bbook by Frederick Taylor is 'Dresden' best book I have read on the raid of Feb 13th 1945. Read 'Slaughterhouse Five' by Kurt Vonnegut. Anthony Beever's two books, 'berlin' and 'Stalingrad' are magnificent but extremely depressing.
That's enough to be going on with..... Enjoy!
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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The Demo Man
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Posted - 01/12/2007 : 12:42
As some of you may know from posts elsewhere, this busy Demo Man relaxes in the main by reading, (Copiously, my Wife would say!) on many a subject from Architecture, Steam and associated subjects to Industrial Heritage and Engineering.
My primary interest though has always been in World War 2. This comes from finding a set of Encyclopedia during my childhood and discovering from its pages all about it, then, like most kids I asked my Grandparents all about their wartime experiences.
It's been difficult of late due to having expanded our little brood over the last 3 years, as anybody who likes reading will tell you, when the kids are around you read the same paragraph over and over and over......and over.................and ,well, you get the idea! There growing now and reading has become a little easier.
So, here we are. I've discovered this little used thread and decided to take full advantage of it and I'd welcome your input too, so please get posting and discussing the marvellous and not so marvellous books you've digested on World War 2, World War 1 or any other military / war you enjoy.
I'll kick us off again, seeing as this post was last used on 13/6/2006. (Slight nerves, does this mean there's only me out here reading this stuff???)
I'm currently reading Anthony Beevers,
"Crete : The Battle and the Resistance".
I've read Stalingrad and Berlin by the same author and agree with Stan, depressing - but extremely fascinating stuff.
Rarely does an Author manage to actually make you feel as though you are stood at the scene but Beevor does this, in my opinion, quite magnificently. Can highly recommend him to you and "Crete" so far is not letting me down.
I'm just up to the stage of the book a few days before the invasion and after the Allies terrible flight from Greece. It's staggering so far, the "establishments" unwillingness to adapt their attitudes to the coming battle despite the full knowledge of clear Ultra intercepts. One almost gets the feeling that using intellegence in the early stages of World War 2 was deemed as not quite cricket - oh dear - with inevitable results!
However, it has to be understood that at this point in the war CO's were often schooled in battle during World War 1 and carried these outdated ideas into their own World War 2 Campaigns. It's not until more junior WW 1 officers achieve higher rank in WW 2 that we start to see a different foresight and tactical success. I will digress here momentarily to emphasise the point. I will use Rommels early Desert Campaigns and his rapid successes.
Rommel simply drove out into the desert and outflanked us on most occasions. We generally adopted a more or less straight line across our front preparing to meet the enemy head on, best foot forward and all that.
Rommel, again a junior officer in WW 1, brought a more enlightened view. Thankfully a young Bernard Montgomery was slightly more enlightened! Once again though Montgomery had served as a junior officer in WW 1. He was staggered as a young lieutenant to watch senior commanders organising the fight from field positions which didn't overlook the battlefield and with no maps of the front to hand either! The tragedy of WW 1 - plain ignorance of the situation and little will to adopt any other tactic than to simply bleed to death the enemies human resource.
I'll update this review on "Crete" as I go through the book.
If you're reading this and you've never thought of military books as an option and are put off by the commom thought that military books are of endless tactics and strategy outlines, remember that often the best ones are by individuals recalling their personal experience.
It's like any other subject you may read there's all sorts of avenues to the subject matter. Find one that interests you, an era, a battle, a battle a relative was in, similary a regiment or theatre of war, Europe, Asia, Pacific etc.
If you'd like to have a dip into this subject then please try as general good starter:
"First Light" by Geoffrey Wellum ISBN 0-141-00814-8
Geoffrey Wellum left school and turned 17 around March 1939. By September 1940 he was flying Spitfires aged just 18 over southern Britain against the Luftwaffe. Eventually he led spits onto the island of Malta to break the seige before collapsing some time later with acute battle fatigue aged 21, then Squadron Leader Geoffrey Wellum DFC.
Why I recommend this to you is quite simply its light reading yet also quite fantastic reading given the age he was and his experiences. An ideal introductory book into the field of military interest. It has been available in your local Supermarkets for £8.99 so you've no excuse!
The truly amazng thing I drew from this account by Geoffrey Wellum was that it makes you so desperately sad when you compare these lads to the society we see now that often shows little if any moral fibre and fight. The England Football Team would do well to read this book, it puts fire into your belly!
Thankyou for taking the time to read this, please comment and please pop a book into your shopping list and take the time to discover some really remarkable stuff. I'll add info on current and read books as the time passes, I commend the issue to the House!
Richard.
Titch  |
The Demo Man
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Posted - 01/12/2007 : 12:56
Just so you know what you're looking for!
Edited by - The Demo Man on 01/12/2007 12:58:35 PM
Titch |
moh
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Posted - 01/12/2007 : 22:31
I really enjoy novels about the second World War - I 'change' my books on Burnley Wednesday market and Max of Denton Books keeps the second world war books for me -I was a baby during that time but I wish I had been older!!!!
Say only a little but say it well |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 07:58
Try 'The last escape' by John Nichol and Tony Rennel. A little known story.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
melteaser
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 08:42
I've never read anything like this. I have requested book vouchers for Christmas so I will take a look at some of your suggestions when I go out to spend them Titch.
Mel
http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk |
Another
Traycle Mine Overseer
6250 Posts
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 08:52
Stephen Ambrose's books "Band of Brothers" and "D Day" give a thoughtful and I think accurate account of the 101st Airborne in the first and in the second the Americans' part in the landings.
Not "gung ho" and "how we won the war". He frequently reminds the reader of the lenghth of time the Brits have been fighting and of the privations suffered by the Brit civilians. Nolic
" I'm a self made man who worships his creator"  |
melteaser
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 10:52
Imindoors had the Band of Brothers DVD set a couple of years ago. He is really into anything like that. Maybe one of these books will appeal to us both.
Mel
http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk |
Another
Traycle Mine Overseer
6250 Posts
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 11:21
I have the DVD and I then bought the book. For me it suggested that the films underestimated the bravery and ability of Dick Winters.
I have read another of Ambrose's books about the Lewis and Clark expedition to the West of America. He is a fine, easy to read writer who unfortunately dies recently. Nolic
" I'm a self made man who worships his creator" |
belle
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 11:51
My memory is so bad when it comes to what books i've read...one about Israel after the second world war..."Ben "something. Ones about social history here...the "Liverpool Miss" series. But in my book case I have my grandfathers "Times: History of the War." vol 1 and 2 which are about the first world war. When the kids have left home, and I get a clear run, intend to do them justice, but I can dip into them for anyone else who would like some photo's or info.
Life is what you make it |
softsuvner
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 17:14
Belle
My grandparents had a set of First War history books, but they vanished a long time ago. I think that a lot were published in the
1920's as people wanted to try and make sense of it all. The problem is, of course, that interpretation of historical events changes over time. People like Kitchener, Haig and even Winston Churchill will appear in a very different light to today's historians.
Malcolm
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Rossie
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 17:58
quote:
The Demo Man wrote:
I'm currently reading Anthony Beevers,
"Crete : The Battle and the Resistance".
Two I would recommend on the WW II Resistance in Crete:-
The Cretan Runner, by George Psychoundakis, who was a Cretan guide and runner in the western mountains of Crete for British and commonwealth agents, carrying messages between towns and secret wirless stations in the mountains.
Also ill Met by Moonlight, by W. Stanley Moss, which is about his successful mission, together with Patrick Leigh Fermor, to capture the German General Kreipe from the German base near Heraklion on the north coast of Crete, and then get him through the mountains to the south coast from where he was shipped to Alexandria.
Ros
Edited by - Rossie on 02/12/2007 7:57:26 PM
Kalh mera oi filoi mou
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panbiker
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 21:06
Just had a birthday and was presented with "Germany 1944, The British Soldiers Pocketbook" a variation with a foreward by Charles Wheeler of the pamphlet given to British personnel entering Germany. Should be an interesting read. Also "Spitfire" the biography, by Jonathan Glancey. Fascinated by the Spit, so again anticipating a good read.
Ian |
moh
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 21:52
Probably wish I had been an adult in the Second World War - it must have been a dangerous time but also a romantic one - my gt. uncle lived next door to the American airbase at |Burtonwood - say no more!!!!!
Say only a little but say it well |
The Demo Man
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 23:09
Well, thankyou all very much! I'm honestly and pleasantly surprised at the response.
Moh, pleased to note you're a fellow trawler of this material, do you like any particular area of the subject over any others? What are you reading at this time or recently?
Nolic, I've recently read Ambrose's book about the 101st and agree that Dick Winters certainly fits the bill of "cometh the hour cometh the man". They suffered immense privations in the Battle of the Bulge which the book discusses but it's difficult to glean from it just how severe the conditions were. Here's some trivia for you associated with Dick Winters - what does he and Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear fame have in common?
Clarksons Father-in-Law was one of the men rescued by Winters during the daring mission he undertook to remove Paratroopers across the Rhine after the miserable Operation Market Garden. He was also quite a man, so enraged was he by the indiscriminate killing of his lightly armed troops by German Panzer Tanks that he single handedly engaged them firing a Mortar from the hip! Normally this weapon was dug into the ground to soak up the recoil and operated by 3 men. He was very heavily decorated after the war but kept his role secret from his family, they only learned of his exploits after he died.
Ros, "Ill met by moonlight" is on the to read list! I'm enjoying Beevors book on Crete very much but I'm quite staggered at the depth of mistakes being made. Feel quite sad for the Germans facing the New Zealand Maori's too, they apparently preferred close combat with fixed bayonets. I saw the Maori Haka at a Rugby League International 3 weeks ago and that was enough for me!!
Mel, seeing as you're very nearly on the hook I'll let you into my other secret. War Poetry. Everybody should own a copy of the "Penguin Book of First World War Poetry". If you read this and don't get hooked, well I've failed!
Here's a couple of my favourites to whet the appetite :
DULCE ET DECORUM EST1 Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Wilfred Owen
Oct 1917-March, 1918 - 1 DULCE ET DECORUM EST - the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of the First World War. They mean "It is sweet and right." The full saying ends the poem: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - it is sweet and right to die for your country. In other words, it is a wonderful and great honour to fight and die for your country
In Flanders Fieldsby John McCrae, May 1915
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep,
though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
Both very powerful I think you'll agree and very thought provoking. Owen is remarkable and was tragically killed in October 1918 after insisting he went back to active service, of course he wouldn't know the war was drawing to a close but it's still immensely sad.
Macrae on the other hand forces us to question ourselves and that's the power of his poem. "If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep"
That statement is truly a powerful call to our conscience don't you agree? A real hammer blow, marvellous stuff!
Give them a whirl, they're not all like the above some are darkly humorous like Siegfried Sassoons "Base Details"
| If I were fierce, and bald, and short of breath, | | | I’d live with scarlet Majors at the Base, | | | And speed glum heroes up the line to death. | | | You’d see me with my puffy petulant face, | | | Guzzling and gulping in the best hotel, | 5 | | Reading the Roll of Honour. ‘Poor young chap,’ | | | I’d say—‘I used to know his father well; | | | Yes, we’ve lost heavily in this last scrap.’ | | | And when the war is done and youth stone dead, | | | I’d toddle safely home and die—in bed. |
Best wishes !
Edited by - The Demo Man on 02/12/2007 11:20:18 PM
Titch |
Rossie
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Posted - 02/12/2007 : 23:13
When I was sorting through the possessions of my father's cousin after her death a few years ago, I came across a small suitcase full of war literature and other stuff, including pamphlets published by His Majesty's Stationery office during the World War II. All together there are about 35 of these - including for example 'Air Battle of Malta', 'Bomber Command'', 'RAF Middle East', 'Mediterranean Fleet Greece to Tripoli', 'The Ark Royal'.
Would they be of interest to anybody? Not that I want to sell them or anything but if it is a goodidea I can list the titles in a post in case anyone would like any info. from them.
Ros
Kalh mera oi filoi mou
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War books
