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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  14/11/2010  :  06:26
NEW VERSION TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR MEMBERS WITH SLOW CONNECTIONS TO CONNECT.

Follw this LINK for last version.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 15:52
"Wow" very impressive. The point I am making is that anyone dictating how, or how not a process should be carried out and how efficient the workforce are in their ability to undertake this process, should first of all be more than capable of doing said undertaking themselves. A good maxim in any event is "Never tell or ask anyone to do something that you cannot do yourself"!! And if you can do this, then you also gain, it is called "respect". Being elected does not always guarantee the correct qualifications!!

Edited by - thomo on 02/03/2011 3:56:22 PM


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 22:01


quote:
Bruff wrote:
On EU Directives etc and its running.


Most Directives and Regulations originating from the European Commission ('Commission') are progressed through the European Parliament (EP) and Council under the 'ordinary legislative procedure'. This is the process under which Council and EP decide jointly on legislation. There are potentially seven formal stages:
  1. Commission presents a proposal (a 'dossier').  
  2. EP conducts first reading and suggests amendments.
  3. Simultaneously, the Council has a first reading and agrees 'common position'.
  4. EP conducts second reading of the Council common position and proposes amendments.
  5. Council then holds second reading to accept or reject EP amendments.
  6. A 'conciliation committee' of Council and EP seeks agreement. If not, the proposal will fail.
  7. If Council and EP fully agree, at any stage, the proposal is accepted.

Now where in that process is any decision made by 'unelected bureaucrats' on whether a Directive etc is passed? 

 
Richard Broughton


Edited by - Bruff on 02/03/2011 2:21:34 PM
Excellent , Richard . Thankyou.....Straight talking from someone who knows.

(am I correct  in thinking you have worked in this field ?) ......


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frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 22:12
What you miss is Who starts the Process !!!!



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 23:24
Given the process (outlined above, by Richard ) , does it matter ?


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 05:20
Funnily enough Napolean was a big fan of a United Europe and it's quite singinificant how much Napoleonic influence there is still in EU laws, modes of thought and procedures.

Comrade, good videos and I love them. They are still showing that advert for baby foods with the laughing babies and it makes me laugh out loud every time I see it. I love happy dogs and kids!

Nelson Mandela developed into a pretty good statesman. Lord Carrington springs to mind, an honourable man. Can't think of a really good candidate at the moment in government.

 

 


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
frankwilk
Senior Member


3975 Posts
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 07:50
Given the process (outlined above, by Richard ) , does it matter ?

Of course it matters, otherwise it's just a circle or should that be a circus. 



Frank Wilkinson       Once Navy Always Navy Go to Top of Page
Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 10:19
The Commission formally starts the process.  It is true that Commissioners and officials in the Commission are not elected.  However, two points to note.  First, the overall strategic direction and priorities for the EU are set by the European Council (EC), which is comprised of the elected Heads of Government of all Member States.  And so from this second, the Commission will not propose a dossier outwith the overall policies agreed by the EC.  Where it does propose it does so on 'matters of concern', which may be public concern, Member State(s) lobbying, NGO lobbying, emerging research and evidence more generally.  Bit like how manifestos etc are developed domestically.

 
But as outlined earlier, no decision on whether a proposed dossier results in a Directive etc, or not, is taken by unelected officials.  Indeed in recent years, the 'power' of the Parliament (the so-called the co-decision process), which is elected, has been greatly enhanced.  All the more reason then, for folk to vote in the European elections.

 
I have no difficulty with a debate on Europe and its perfectly right for folk to hold positions 'for' or 'against' our continuing membership.  My difficulty is with a lot of the misinformation that's put about and widespread ignorance (and I don't say that in a perjorative way) of how the EU functions.

 
For my sins, I have worked in International Policy in Government.  But you shouldn't have to have done that to have an idea of how 'Europe' works.  A sheet or two of A4 is enough. 

 
On Napoleonic influences, the widespread civil law practices in Europe, compared to common law, or case law, practices here can cause difficulties with our transposition of Directives and associated threats of infraction.  If a Directive asks you to control something, a French judge can interpret that as they see fit; a British judge can't as they refer to case law (unless the issue is so distinct they create precedent).  I acknowledge this as a difficulty with 'Europe' but not insurmountable.

 
Richard Broughton 



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catgate
Senior Member


1764 Posts
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 11:56


quote:
Bruff wrote:
The Commission formally starts the process.  It is true that Commissioners and officials in the Commission are not elected.  However, two points to note.  First, the overall strategic direction and priorities for the EU are set by the European Council (EC), which is comprised of the elected Heads of Government of all Member States.
 
Richard Broughton 

Taking a good look at the underhand tricks, deceit and spin that have resuted in the election  of our incompetent and two faced Heads of Government over the last twenty years, it is perfectly obvious that the Mother of Parliaments sets off with aims that are not in the interests of its people but are in the interests of its "patrons". This principle of patronage and deceit is pan European.  Back as far as fat Ted,the organist, it was all a clandestine plot. No matter how great the plethora of smoke and mirrors, the idea that somehow the EU is a democratic organisation is never going to be accepted. People are a little more intelligent now than in the middle ages.


Every silver lining has a cloud.


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Bruff
Regular Member


479 Posts
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 12:53
If you have concerns about the electoral process per se, then it doesn't really matter whether this is directed at the national or pan-European level - the logic doesn't make the one less democratic than the other.  All I'm pointing out to those who perhaps don't have such concerns is how the EU operates, which is not vastly different to national arrangements.


And just to clarify, I know we don't elect our Head of Government, or indeed the Government, in this country.  But they are elected Members of Parliament.

Richard Broughton



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wendyf
Senior Member


1439 Posts
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 14:06
This made me laugh today. One for cat lovers..


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Bradders
Senior Member


1880 Posts
Posted - 03/03/2011 : 23:31


quote:
frankwilk wrote:

Now we have the EU, UN and NATO etc, run by faceless unelected people Edited by - frankwilk on 02/03/2011 09:10:05 AM
I think Richard has dealt with this misconception , certainly as far as the EU is concerned , perfectly well. He has also indicated , from an informed position, that all legislation has, in part ,  to originate (by definition) from unelected people. (and is therefore not being  "run"  by them)

To call those people  faceless , is an attempt to add weight to a shaky arguement.....

And before I'm accused , once again, of having no opinion in these matters , I would like to make it plain that I consider the current method of electing our Members of Parliament , to be flawed.

Our system results in an assembly that , once elected , pulls the ladder up and  "cocks a snook" at the electorate  .....until they've milked the system enough to annoy the press........

Yes, I know that last bit's just  a little naughty, but..........given today's developments re. Murdoch et al ......Mmmmmm

Now there IS a face !

 

Edited by - Bradders on 03/03/2011 11:41:29 PM

Edited by - Bradders on 04/03/2011 01:35:44 AM


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 05:46
I don't think it's 'naughty' to suggest that the electorate are only important to career politicians when they need their votes to achieve control and like you I don't see Newscorp's world domination as a good thing. The issue of control is the main beef we humans have against any sort of government. The trick is to distinguish between sensible acceptance of rules which make society run more efficiently and those which favour one group above others. The more draconian the actions taken by those in control, the more reaction there will be.

These are generalities I know but nonetheless important. The only conclusion I draw is that the more even the control of power is, the better society fares. For that reason I am in favour of changing the electoral system to make the individual vote count for more than a bet in a first past the post horse race.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Tizer
VIP Member


5150 Posts
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 12:11
Richard, in the European Parliament how many votes does the UK have as a proportion of the total?


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 12:23
Wendy, have you seen the cravendale ad, all about cats with thumbs, wonder if this cat inspired it! You'll find it on you tube.


Life is what you make itGo to Top of Page
wendyf
Senior Member


1439 Posts
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 12:45
A friend of mine in Scotland had a cat with quite a few extra toes, it was really weird to see. She got her just after Chernobyl, so the cat was called Cherno.
I must go and have a look for the ad.


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