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Tizer
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22/03/2010
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11:53
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I wrote some time ago that I was intending to make my first attempt at building a computer and promised that I would relate the story here on OGFB. I bit the bullet about 10 days ago, ordered the components on-line from Dabs, received them last week and dived into action.
I ran into a problem due to being sent a faulty motherboard which Dabs replaced, so the following posts describe a lot of work sorting out what was wrong before we realised it was the motherboard. Read these posts if you want all the details. If you want just the description of how the PC was built without details of the glitch I've now written it up later in this thread. See it on page 8.
Edited by - Tizer on 06/05/2010 10:35:18
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Tizer
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Posted - 22/03/2010 : 20:38
Thanks everyone for your support. Kev, I've tried the motherboard with the necessary connections but out of the case and got the same result (and learnt that this is known as `breadboarding'!). I can't see anything that would be shorting it out in the case.
Ian, thanks for doing so much and I'm sorry I didn't give the full details. It's an Asus P5QL/EPU board. The big puzzle is that I've not been getting any sounds out of it at all. At first I had the front panel HD audio lead as the only sound connected but then I found out that there is that little dangly system speaker and connected that too to the position shown in my manual, alongside the front panel switch pins. But still no beeps. I didn't know what a Q connector was but found pictures on Google - there wasn't one of those with the board.
I assume the PSU is OK from the `paper clip' shorting test where the fan runs - unless that isn't a full indication of PSU function. Yes, I have the CPU fan lead on the correct connector as indicated by the manual and the letters on the board. I will put up a photo of the board.
I don't know how to put on a bigger version of my photo in this new system for submitting pics - I could do it in the old version! So I hope this is enough.
The yellow and black cable going over the heat sink is the 12v ATX . The CPU fan cables are yellow, blue, green and black and go to top right of the board. The very top right connector on the board is Power Fan but there is no cable for this. The CPU one is right next to it. There is a chassis fan connector on the board nut no cable for it. There is an extra case fan on the back (top left of photo) but this has a molex connector which I've connected to the molex cable from the PSU (it goes over the heat sink). The 24 pin power connector is middle right side. Front panel audio to bottom left, front panel USB to bottom middle, then to the right of that are the front panel switch, rese, LEDs, system speaker. The video card is in the PCI 16 slot.
Edited by - Tizer on 22/03/2010 21:04:38
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pluggy
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Posted - 22/03/2010 : 20:56
The last I heard, I was of the opinion I had successfully convinced you that my preferred solution - MATX and onboard graphics was the way to go. Its my preferred solution because it leaves out the minefield of compatibility of display cards and its less to go wrong (and its cheap  ). It seems you went with your original choice of kit. It SHOULD work together, but should and do are two different things. You've done all the right things, what I would do in your position would be borrow another graphics card, since that is the likely problem (the card may well be OK, but it isn't OK with this particular motherboard).
In my experience, its highly unlikely to be the CPU - (I've had 2 duff CPUs in 25+ years, the quality control is top notch). I shouldn't worry too much about the heatsink and fan, it should start up with neither in place, it will run like treacle because the CPU will close down to very slow to stop itself overheating, but it will run. You've got 2 memory sticks, just try it with one, and then the other, its unlikely both are duff and the board will run with one.
The shock you experinced is very unlikley to be static, any static would have gone to earth through the mains lead, its more likely to be the high voltage capacitors holding charge and finding a path to ground through the mains lead and your fingers.
The most likely problem in my opinion is an incompatibility between the display card and the board (been there several times). And since its an ASUS board which is as good as they come (again IMO) and a no-name display card.....
I used to have an old PCI graphics card (try finding one nowadays) that was useful to check out motherboards with display issues, it would be useful in this case. Another possibility is that the PSU isn't working fully, but since your board LED is lit, its working to some degree, DOA power supplies are a rarity, cheap nasty ones will run for 2 months and then die.
You could try hooking up a drive if you haven't already, some modern power supplies don't bring everything up if there is little load on the 12v bus and sometimes the extra load of a hard disk will change its mind.
After that its swapping bits around to find out which is the problem, difficult if you don't have drawer full of computer bits. My moneys on the graphics card not getting on with the board.
Edited by - pluggy on 22/03/2010 20:59:17
Need computer work ?
"http://www.stsr.co.uk" 
Pluggy's Household Monitor |
Tizer
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Posted - 22/03/2010 : 21:17
Thanks for all the suggestions Pluggy. You really did convince me that MATX and onboard graphics was the way to go, honest, really! But remember my email that went missing? That's when I was explaining that Dabs didn't offer (at least at that time) an MATX and onboard graphics combination that suited my CPU choice - so I had to default back to the original separate board (although I'm as keen as you to keep the costs down - well almost!).
I'm still a bit puzzled about how memory and graphics card affect this problem. Can the memory sticks stop a PC from starting as in this instance? I thought it would still start i.e. fan running etc. Similarly, if the graphics card was duff or incompatible I know I would get nowt on the screen but, again, wouldn't the PC fire up? It's this lack of almost any sign of life that surprise me. Not even a friendly little beep. Or an unfriendly beep...
Well I've got plenty to try out tomorrow!
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Big Kev
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Posted - 22/03/2010 : 21:24
I've built a few and, fortunately, they've all worked. The only thing I would do is take bits off until it started bleeping eror codes at me.
Pluggy and Panbiker have done a lot more of them than me, they'll be the best people to point you in the right direction. Good luck, it'll work eventually.
Edited by - Big Kev on 22/03/2010 21:27:45
Big Kev
It doesn't matter who you vote for, you always end up with the government. |
pluggy
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Posted - 22/03/2010 : 21:36
Modern boards won't start up without memory, but if your board has a beeper or you wire one up it will usually give you bleep codes. The fan usually won't start until the board comes up. A graphics card can stop the board firing up (been there), the board won't start until it has checked things out, and it could be something as simple as timing in the communication between the main board and the graphics that prevents it going. The card could work perfectly with another board.
There has been a move of late not to put beepers on boards and few cases have them nowadays, so it could be putting put bleeps but theres nothing to make them audible. At one time the beeper was all the sound you got on a PC. I remember games like DigDug that programmed the beeper to play tunes. Theres little need for them when all boards have onboard 5.1 channel sound (except for beep codes that is.
What would be the problem with your CPU choice ?, Its the most common type (socket 775) and pretty much any 775 board the right side of 2 years old will work with quad cores.
Need computer work ?
"http://www.stsr.co.uk"
Pluggy's Household Monitor |
panbiker
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Posted - 22/03/2010 : 23:11
I have had a look at the correct manual for your board, it makes no mention of beep codes. It has the same AMI BIOS as the other Asus manual I was looking at which was the P5QL PRO, I would be very surprised if it did not behave the same.
The manual does state that the system speaker connection (4pin) is used for system beeps and warnings which is a bit of a giveaway.
The diagnostic beeps are produced by the BIOS during the POST test which is the basic startup test which it must pass before the board will startup.
Disconnect everything apart from the power to the board, connect the system speaker and the power switch. The board should have the CPU fitted and maybe 1 stick of RAM.
Without a video card the board should give one continuous beeb followed by three short beeps.
If you power it up without RAM it should give one continuous beep followed by two short beeps then a pause and repeat.
If you can't raise a bit of life out of it with this basic configuration you could be looking at a faulty power supply. In an ideal situation you would try this first with a replacement.
The board has to enter and pass the POST test or you will get no further. If you can check it with a known good PSU and It behaves the same you may be looking at a faulty Motherboard.
It is a bit sinister that it is not making any diagnostic noises at all. Of course the system speaker could be faulty, not the first time that this would have happened.
Edited by - panbiker on 22/03/2010 23:44:53
Ian |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 06:57
It looks as though FMII has roughly the same config as yours so I'm giving the spec in case it gives you any clues, I'm not sure which is the video card.
550watt silent PSU
Intel core 2 Quad Q9550 64bit 12Mb CPU
Asus P5QL-pro
8Gb Corsair memory (only £19 for an extra 4GB!)
2 x 1Tb 7200 SATAII HD
1GB DDR3 PCI-X GF GT240 (16X) (Is this the card?)
20X DVD writer
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 08:11
Don't know whether this could help. Reviews that give some of the problems as well as the good bits.
http://alatest.co.uk/reviews/processor-motherboard-reviews/asus-motherboard-p5ql/po3-61017915,53/#partner:50404
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Tizer
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 10:25
Thanks Stanley. The page related to the Asus P5QL but I followed one of the review links and got this more specific P5QL/EPU reviews list on the Canadian Newegg site. These review sites always, by definition, show up an abundance of problems but this Asus board seems to do relatively well. There is a sprinkling of motherboard failures, memory failures and graphics card failures. (Yes, I think the "1GB DDR3 PCI-X GF GT240 (16X)" will be your graphics card).
Ian, there is no mention of beeps anywhere in the Asus P5QL/EPU `paper manual' but they are mentioned in the PDF manual. However this PDF manual doesn't have a title and the file is simply called `Asus motherboard guide' so it may be generic to Asus boards rather than specific to mine. On the assumption mine should beep, the PDF manual mentions the two beep codes you have above plus two more, i.e.
*One continuous beep followed by three short beeps - no video card detected.
*One continuous beep followed by two short beeps, then a pause and repeat - no memory detected.
*One coninuous beep followed by four short beeps - hardware compnent failure (AMI BIOS).
*Four short beeps - hardware compnent failure (Award BIOS).
I'm going to try out the various tests and strip the board down to board + CPU/heat sink + one memory stick with speaker and power as suggested.
One other thought. I've seen several references on PC forums to using a jumper to clear the CMOS memory when a new PC won't start up. How to do this is described in my Asus manual, although it doesn't say it *must* be done before the first start and it soen't suggest it as a way to solve a no-start problem. The manual just has a page all on its own telling `how to Clear RTC RAM'. Should I try this or is it dangerous for the PC, will it mess up the settings?
And another thought...I'll send a message to Dabs warning them that I've used the parts to build a PC but it isn't starting and that this may be due to hardware failure and I'm currently running tests to find out the source of the problem. This would make sure I fulfil any requirements in their terms & conditions to inform them of faulty goods within x days.
Yet another question - the heat sink came with a layer of thermal paste on its underside to give a good thermal link with the top of the processor. Does the system have a way of sensing if there is a continuous layer of paste between the two surfaces? For instance, does the paste conduct electricity and allow the system to detect an electrical link as well as thermal? Or does it only depend on the processor getting too hot if there is too little paste and then shutting the system down? Sorry, that was a lot of questions, not `another'!
Edited by - Tizer on 23/03/2010 11:00:40
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pluggy
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 10:59
Clearing the CMOS won't do any harm, ,it will revert to default settings, which isn't a problem since you can't have changed any. Its a nice get out of jail free card when somebody password protects the BIOS and then can't remember what it was set to. Removing the battery for a period (overnight usually does it, but often it clears much quicker) has much the same effect.
Need computer work ?
"http://www.stsr.co.uk"
Pluggy's Household Monitor |
pluggy
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 11:10
The paste has no function other than transferring heat, it doesn't conduct electricity. Modern processors regulate themselves by slowing down to reduce heat, the computer would run without a heatsink, but it would be slow. I've had one or two slow ones where the heatsink has been hanging off or not seated, they come back up to speed when they can shift their heat. Old processors (say over 6 or 7 years old) would destroy themselves without a heatsink.
Need computer work ?
"http://www.stsr.co.uk"
Pluggy's Household Monitor |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 12:16
This is truly great stuff and I have learned a good deal from it. I spoke earlier of my intentions of updating my stack, but I will not muddy the waters here as my knowledge is limited, I will put my questions on "How do I do this". Two things stand out, apart from the high quality of the advice given. 1. the current costs involved are reasonable for the amount of benefit achieved and 2. the importance of cooling, I recently improved my outfits performance dramaticaly by just cleaning the airways and re-siting it in a better airflow environment. Good luck Tizer it looks like you are in good hands.
thomo |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 15:45
Peter, I have mentioned this (Very diffidently) to Tiz on another topic but 3B at Nelson took my list of components, checked them for compatability and then built the computer for me, testing it and burning it in for 24 hrs using the same OS as I would be using. They charge £30 for this. Looks like a bargain to me..... I didn't check their prices on the components because I trust them, I doubt if there would be much, if any, saving by shopping round. One thing is certain, it is quick and painless. (Sorry Tiz, I know it's rubbing it in...)
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart
36804 Posts
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 15:49
PS. Apart from the Draytek Pluggy I owe you another vote of thanks for putting me on to Disckeeper. A brilliant programme working away in the background and keeping my drives clean. Just what a programme should do.
Stanley Challenger Graham
Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk |
thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt
2021 Posts
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Posted - 23/03/2010 : 15:55
Stanley, did they provide the "bits" as well, whatever, i'm certainly interested, many thanks.
Edited by - thomo on 23/03/2010 3:58:36 PM
thomo |
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Building my own computer
