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Callunna
Revolving Grey Blob


3044 Posts
Posted -  19/01/2006  :  21:33
Environmental groups have today called for extensive public consultation following the Government's announcement that a major power station is to be built to the west of Barnoldswick, Lancashire, in a largely uninhabited area of moorland known as Middop*.

"It is now almost universally accepted that Britain's power requirements outstrip current capacity," said a senior government source at a news conference in Westminster today. "If we are to remain a force in the world's economy we must ensure that we can meet the demand for power on both an industrial and domestic front, although it has not yet been decided in what form this power will be generated - nuclear, renewable or fossil."

Environmental campaigners are demanding that the local population be consulted to gauge their opinion on the matter. A questionnaire is to be issued to each household in the area asking the following simple question:

If you had a choice, which kind of power generation plant would you find least objectionable if it were situated 'in your back yard':

1. Nuclear (similar to Windscale and Sizewell) 2. Renewable (similar to wind farms at Cliviger) 3. Fossil (electricity generated by coal/gas)

* Needless to say, this posting is not, thank god, actually true! I just thought I'd use a bit of literary licence to set the scene. The basic question is: Given that the UK will have to build more power stations, what solution would YOU be happy with? And given that such a plant would have to be built SOMEwhere, how would you feel if it were next to Barlick

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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 06:09
As for the Morecambe Bay Barrage, It's like the Severn Barrage, it's been about for so long that I doubt if anyone will ever do anything about them.  Their fate is usually tied up with wetland birds.  That's it, the ones that carry bird flu.  Complicated world isn't it.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Hatepe (R.I.P.)
Regular Member


280 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 07:02

There are a lot of waste hill sides in the Pennines that serve very little purpose, I can think of Blackstone Edge and the hills between Colne and Haworth as two examples-- how many times do the "Do Gooders" travel these areas??? The modern wind generating machines are about as high as electric pylons  -  up to 70M tall, they are computer controlled  - the ones in NZ are operated from Denmark, I believe that we have more than 1000 of them nowadays., with the numbers increasing.  They are financed by public subscription  -  if you want shares in them you tender for what you can afford.

They are not the full answer for the future, but all our coal is being exported to China and India to feed their industrial needs, we do have some oil wells and gas wells, but after 30 years they are beginning to dry up  -  like North Sea Gas wells. Our main supply of power is from Hydro Electric dams, but global warming is beginning to alter our climate, we either get so much rain we can't contain it or a drought.  So forward thinking is needed. Where I now live, we have had only 27 days rain in 7 months, the hills and paddocks are burnt brown, but the winds are still blowing and the big propellors on the wind generators are turning day and night connected to the grid.

The house that I lived in in Burnlea Terrace Barlick as a lad had no electricity, we had Gas for lighting and for the oven and a hot water cylinder over the sink.  Mother cooked and boiled the kettle on the hob on the fire, no Hoover to clean with, just britches arse steam with a Ewbank cleaner and the carpets were beaten on the clothes line.  Monday was wash day and the copper was lit by coal early morning, no fancy washing machines or driers in those days.  Going to bed with a lit candle was no joke, and replacing mantles on the gas lights was a chore.

So if the world wants electric power they are going to have to do some serious thinking, especially once the gas supply runs out, 'cos if you have to buy it from Russia you will be paying thru. the nose for it., so the price of power will increase.

I think that each nation will sort out a series of means of power generation to suit their needs, here in NZ we have gone forward with wind generated power as a back up to our hydro electric power generation.

Aye Hatepe




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 09:39
Morning Bob, hydro is the perfect solution and it's quite amazing how many sources of power there are in the country that are not used because they aren't seen to be big enough to be economical.  Forget the economics, they will all go out the window in the next ten years as the price of energy rises.  Let's see some investment in small turbines feeding directly into the grid.  I have a mate who runs a large tourist attraction on the River Derwent and his turbine supplies all hs power and feeds the excess into the grid automatically.  He says it not only pays, it's profitable.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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tripps
Senior Member


1404 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 11:02

Staney... a couple of questions. Can you tell us more about nuclear fusion. I recall that the last time I heard of this, a few years ago, it all came to nothing, more of a laboratory possiblilty than a large scale industrial process. What is a realistic time scale for this to be of benefit.

Could you say more about clean coal? You say extract the hydrogen, and the by product (on combustion) is water. What happens to the carbon? How does this compare efficiency wise to obtaining hydrogen by other means?

I like the idea of wind power, but of course the problem that it is unreliable as a base load provider. Now there was, and maybe still is, a scheme in North wales when "cheap" off peak generated electricity, was used to pump water up to a hilltop lake, and then during peak demand time this was released and hydro electricity was generated. Is it possible that this could be used on a larger scale to use the output of wind generators?  This of course would be low efficiency, but would provide a use for night time generated wind electricity.

I also wonder whether this off peak power could be used to move large quantities of water arond the country, from areas of high rainfall to those less favoured. We need another Brunel, and a government which can see beyond the next election?

Best regards

Dave Trippier.




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 14:25

There have been two main avenues of research towards fusion which is essentially splitting the hydrogen atom.  The biggest single problem once we had invented the hydrogen bomb, which is the same technology basically, was containg the reaction.  The Americans went for batteries of lasers acting on a focal point, we're talking about laser tubes big enough to drive a bus through.  The Eiropeans at CERN went for magnetic fields.  The CERN experiments are successful on a small scale and at the moment they are building a much bigger version which besides being used for research on fusion is looking deep into particle physics and I think quantum Mechanics.  I listened to one of the scientists the other day who said that it was long term and if pressed he said that we would probably have sustainable power from fusion in fifty years.  The thing about fusion is that the raw material is water and the by-products are hydrogen and oxygen.

I don't know a lot about hydrogen from coal.  It's obviously quite easy to do in chemical terms, the trick is to get the economics right and use the by products cleanly.  Carbon is no problem in pure form, plenty of uses for that.  CO2 can be disposed of by pumping it into old oil fields thus increasing the yield of oil and burying the CO2.  There's a scheme for this working now.

The key to all these things is the economics.  It's a bit like the waste tips on old mines.  Nobody is interested in the re-processing of them until the price of whatever they are after rises to a level where it becomes profitable.  I'd guess that it will be the economic imperative that drives the next generation of power production.  CERN looks like an expensive luxury at the moment but in 50 years will seem dirt cheap.

I can't remember where it is but there is a pumped storage scheme somewhere in the UK that stores off peak power.




Stanley Challenger Graham




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moh
Silver Surfer


6860 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 14:36
I remember reading not too long ago they are going to put windmills in the sea off the coast of Walney Island, near Barrow but do not know if this has happened yet.


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Ringo
Site Administrator


3793 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 18:28

I can't remember where it is but there is a pumped storage scheme somewhere in the UK that stores off peak power.

 

DINORWIG POWER STATION




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Big Kev
Big


2650 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 19:43
I did some work in Culham in Oxfordshire in the mid eighties that involved a fusion reactor. It was called the Joint European Taurus, huge beast of a thing. I had the job of building a glass roof over the top of it.


Big Kev

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Sue
Senior Member


4201 Posts
Posted - 22/01/2006 : 23:10

These debates will go on forever, I first taught this topic in 1883, little has changed except the urgeny to find a solution. Over the years I have seen many students discuss the issues, invariably after resrearch the barrages and nuclear came out on top. I pass no comment or personal opinion, neither then nor now.

 

Sue




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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 07:41
Sue, it must be boring to chunder on for 123 years without ever expressing an opinion.......


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Sue
Senior Member


4201 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 08:33

Learned not to. I prefer to weigh up all the odds, ask questions,  listen,  watch and read, but then keep quiet, it keeps the peace!!!!!!.. I act on my beliefs, but rarely make them public.  As I taught many conversial topics, eg genetic engineering, medical ethics, I believe people need to make up their own minds with as far as possible an unbiased knowledge of the facts. My students rarely knew what my opinion was and I think that is the way it should be. People should make up their minds from the facts and not emotions

Sue




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Ringo
Site Administrator


3793 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 08:48
HERE is what the BBC has to say about nuclear and the alternatives.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 10:40
Since 1883?


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Ringo
Site Administrator


3793 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 11:00

Since 1883?

 

 

That means Sue is nearly old enough to have taught you Stanley.




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Sue
Senior Member


4201 Posts
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 12:34

oh no typing again, all though I think it was the red wine, there seem to be a few errors crept in to that one, what was the time. Ah I see, after 11.00p.m, definitely red wine!!

As for the debate, it is difficult to be unbiased when you have  close family and friends working in the industries being discussed.

Sue




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