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panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted -  28/12/2007  :  12:47
As there are a number of artists among our midst, I thought I would start a topic for watercolour painting.



Ian
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Another
Traycle Mine Overseer


6250 Posts
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 06:32
Its done on photoshop by me a rank amateur., though the A4 sized version looks much more like a painting and is quite realistic.According to C the effects like pastel and watercolour work much better on a lighter background.

Coincidentally our recent debate about monochrome photo's was brought to mind yesterday ( I had a day off work ) when I skipped through a couple of C's Fay Godwin books of photographs. "Elmet " is a book of photo's reflecting Ted Hughes poems and are all from the Calderdale area and another book of mixed b and w and colour are fascinating with some very humorous shots. My favourite is a picture of a butchers stall, I think in Bradford, where there are notices advertising his wares. One of them includes "Don't forget your dog" which has a wonderful potential for confusion.  Have a look at some of her books from your library. very interesting. Nolic

 


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 08:30
I can remember the late Roger Perry once telling me to buy photographic books.  I got quite a few and he was right, prices have gone through the roof.  Lokk up Vietnam Inc on Bookfinder.....

B&W pics fascinate me because my eye isn't confused by colour, it makes you concentrate on the subject, light and composition.  My mentors made me look at endless pics and Roger used to send me 10X8s every now and again just to remind me.  Picture Post, Bert Hardie and the rest.  Get hold of a copy of Bresson: When the war was over.  The pics say it all.  I once bumped into Andre Kertez on a street in Geenwich Village and was so awestruck I couldn't speak.....  Once, when trying to get a lecture organised I went down to Essex and spent the afternoon with George Rogers, one of the founders of Magnum.  He was lovely, very shy and taught me more about pics in an afternoon than you would believe.  One of his prints of a Masai warrior had just been sold in NY for an enormous sum and I asked him what made it so valuable.  He said "Buggered if I know!"  He'd sold the print years ago for a tenner.

Forgive me for going on but George told me a story about some Leicas and through a series of coincidencies I eventually got he whole story.  A nice illustration of how memory can play tricks.  It makes you wonder how many anecdotes in memoirs are strictly accurate.  Here's the piece I wrote about it:

Henri Cartier-Bresson.  1908-2004.

 

Today, the 5th of August 2004 we got news that the greatest 20th century photographer was buried yesterday after an unannounced death two days ago.  He was 93 and had simply stopped eating and died. 

This news triggered off a train of thought and I went into my files to see whether I could find a piece I had written about Magnum, the picture agency founded by Cartier-Bresson and others after WW2.   All I could find was a short sentence in my memoirs about the day I door-stepped the Magnum office and kissed Eve Arnold’s hand before going out to lunch with Philip Jones-Griffiths.   

The problem about this is that there is a story connected with this which I am sure I’ve already written but can’t find it.  There is only one sensible thing to do, write it down again for posterity.   

GEORGE RODGER, DAVID HURN AND THE LEICAS. 

George Rodger was one of the founding members of Magnum and knew Cartier-Bresson well.  Like him, he favoured the Leica 35mm camera because of it’s small size, quality of image and simplicity.  As Magnum grew in importance Leica saw an opportunity to promote their camera by making sure that the best images were being made on their cameras. 

At some point, I don’t know the date, they brought out a special edition camera called the Leica ‘P’ which I don’t think was ever put on general sale, it was given by Leica to famous Leica users.  Cartier-Bresson and George Rodger were two of these. 

Sometime in 1982 David Moore , the Principal of Nelson and Colne College, asked me to arrange a seminar on photography for students on a course run by his private company, Sovereign Education.  I can’t remember what the connection was but I came up with the idea of getting George Rodger to do the seminar.  As far as I know he had never spoken publicly about his photography but I contacted him at his home in Smarden, near Ashford in Kent and went down to visit him.  He agreed to do the seminar but tragically the course never happened because not enough students signed up for the course.  However, during my stay he told me a story about his days at Magnum. 

He said that Leica gave him two Leica ‘P’ bodies and a full set of lenses to go with them and he used them for years with no problems at all.  One day he was asked to do a picture of Harold Wilson for the front cover of Time Magazine so he arranged a meeting, trotted off, blew two rolls of Tri-X off and headed back for his office where he gave the films to his technician for developing. 

Shortly afterwards the technician came in and suggested that George might like to view the films as there was a problem.  George told me he went in and was astounded to see that he’d cut off the top of Harold Wilson’s head in every frame bar the last one.  This frame was sent off to Time, they printed it and George got the fee but he was left with the puzzle as to what had gone wrong.  Eventually George found out that the problem was that his new tri-focal glasses were interacting with the viewfinder on the Leica in such a way that he was getting a false picture of what he was framing in the camera.   

George said that as this happened he had an offer laid on his desk from Olympus Cameras offering him a full outfit of their new 35mm camera and lenses if he would use them exclusively.  They were after the same deal that Leica had wanted.  He tried one of the cameras, found that the framing suited him and his glasses, liked the lens quality and the decreased weight and so went over to using the new cameras. 

As his Leicas were redundant he eventually sold them second-hand to a friend of his and forgot about the matter until he was talking to someone one day who noticed he was using Olympus cameras and asked him what he had done with his Leicas.  George told him and was astounded when the man pointed out that the Leicas were unique and worth far more than he had sold them for.  George got on to the friend to whom he had sold the cameras only to find that they had been stolen from a hotel room in New York.  End of story and two disgruntled snappers. 

Now life can be very strange and it is a constant source of wonder to me the way connections become re-activated years after an event. 

In July 2001 in an entirely different context I was invited to take part in a week long workshop in the Elan Valley in Wales run by the BBC to test the technology of digital storytelling.  One of the other participants was a man called David Hurn who is, in my mind anyway, one of our best contemporary photographers and who works very much in the same way that the original Magnum agency was founded.  We got on well and had some very interesting conversations during the course of which I told him my George Rodger story.   

I noticed that he was paying particular attention and when I finished he said that he was amazed.  It turned out that he was the man who had bought the cameras off George and had them stolen in New York.  He knew nothing about the previous history and so between us we finally arrived at the complete story.   

David was very pleased to get the cameras off George and had taken them all to New York to use on an assignment.  I say ‘all’ but that’s not quite true, he had sold one body to Philip Jones-Griffiths, another Magnum photographer and added incidentally that he though Philip had put it straight into a safe deposit and that with hindsight, he should have done the same! 

When David arrived in New York he had to go out for an appointment immediately and left all his baggage in the hotel room.  When he came back he had been robbed and the cameras and lenses had gone.  However, he said there was something very strange about it as his money, credit cards, passport and travel documents were with the cameras but they hadn’t been touched.  It was almost as if someone knew exactly what they were after.  He informed the police but the cameras were never seen again as far as I know. 

So there you are, I’ve recorded the story for posterity in less time than it would have taken to search for it.  Isn’t it marvellous how the long arm of coincidence reaches out over the years and can eventually fill in the gaps for you.  Truth can be stranger than fiction….. 

[As usual, the mind plays tricks over the years.  Here’s mail I received from David which corrects some of my mistakes.] 

Dear Stanley.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I must say I heard of the death of Henri with incredulity, he seemed immortal - his work is.

For your future reference, a few minor corrections. Cartier-Bresson was 95 at his death. The camera you talk about was the original MP camera not P. (they have just made another MP copy). George sold me three cameras not two - I sold one to Phillip. The advantage of the MP at that time was that it was the only Leica that took a rapid wind on the bottom. It is true that Phillip did put the camera into a safe but I suspect that was much later. I am sure he originally used it. The cameras at the time were not really worth that much as people were not collectors at that time. Certainly George would not have phoned me - re the value of the camera - he was far to much of a gentleman to do such a thing.

Life is good for me - I never seem to stop working. - I really should slow down but there seems so much to do and so little time to do it in. Everything I have to carry seems to be getting heavier.

Best David.
 

SCG/05 August 2004


Stanley Challenger Graham




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Sue
Senior Member


4201 Posts
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 10:52
This is an extract from
www.manchester2002-uk.com/celebs/artists3.html
Its interesting how an article like this is reflected in the town today. I believe his house is still standing on Bury Road, although I may be mistaken, and there are Streets called Fenton Street. He must have been one of the earlist photographers. The site mentions other local artists too


Roger Fenton
Roger Fenton, Rochdale-born photographer

(1819-1869)
Born in Rochdale in 1819, the son of a Lancashire mill-owner and banker, Roger Fenton is now best remembered for his definitive photographs of the Crimean War. But, Fenton had a much broader portfolio, which often misses public attention.
After studying at London University, Fenton studied art in London, and later in Paris under the painter Paul Delaroche. However, having had little success as a painter, in 1844 he returned to London and studied law.
In 1851 he went to Paris and was immediately impressed by the work of French photographers. In 1852 he visited Russia, and his photographs were amongst the first ever to be seen in England and immediately earned him artistic notoriety.
It was he who proposed the setting up of a London Photographic Society, and in January 1853 the origins of what was to become the Royal Photographic Society were set in place, with Fenton acting as its secretary for the next 3 years.
As a now distinguished proponent of the new art form, Fenton photographed Queen Victoria's family, and was appointed as the official photographer to the British Museum.
Soon after the outbreak of the Crimean War in 1853 the inadequacy of medical provision became evident, more troops dying though disease than injury, and in 1855, in response to disastrous criticism of the government's handling of the war, Fenton was commissioned to photograph it, and produced over 350 pictures of the conflict, which are largely responsible for his abiding reputation. Later, criticisms of the legitimacy of his photos were made, as it was perceived to be little more than a propaganda exercise, as he was bound to show the wellbeing of the troops, and in any case he wanted to sell his pictures, and the more gruesome realistic ones were not thought to be commercially viable.
After the war he published bound volumes of his prints, but they did not sell as well as he had hoped. From a commercial viewpoint, photographs were not yet permanent enough and tended to fade over time, as an adequate "fix" was not yet available.
Fenton also produced a number of Stereoscopic images, a popular format at the time. His pictures of architecture, landscapes, cathedrals and still life subjects proved much more popular. Inexplicably, his series of photographic prints from an expedition to the Scottish highlands were never published and by 1861 he had given up photography completely and returned to practicing law.
Roger Fenton died in 1869 at the age of forty-nine. Over 800 of Fenton's photographs are known to exist and 600 prints are kept in the Royal Photographic Society archives.




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TOM PHILLIPS
Steeplejerk


4164 Posts
Posted - 09/03/2008 : 11:58
I think Roger Fenton was actually born in Heywood,hes on the Wikipedia list for famous Heywood folk,hes known as the first war photographer.....


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softsuvner
Regular Member


604 Posts
Posted - 09/03/2008 : 14:30
Stanley

Loved the story about Magnum and the Leica, Cartier-Bresson, like Roger Fenton, was someone who just had an eye for a picture. You can teach photographic technique, but the ability to see the picture before you even pick up the camera is a gift that us lesser mortals can only dream about, and strive towards.
Sad thing about Leicas is that nowadays, most of their production is sold to people who keep them locked away, in the original boxes (very important that!) and then sell them as auction 20 years later at a huge profit. It is a camera for Pete's sake, what use is it if you can't use it to take pictures?

Malcolm


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Sue
Senior Member


4201 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 10:20
The Heywood Rochdale border is rather obscure at the site of his house. I do believe you are right, he has also been claimed by Heywood,  although as I say his name was  honoured in the town of Rochdale

 Sue


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Sue
Senior Member


4201 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 10:24
Looking further I see he was born at Crimble Hall, which is now a restaurant, on Bury Road

 Sue


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Sue
Senior Member


4201 Posts
Posted - 11/03/2008 : 10:32
Whilst searching for Roger Fentons birthplace I found this interesting article on
www.rochdaleobserver.co.uk/community/rochdale

Leaders of industry who used home life as symbol of power


18/ 7/2006

OVER the centuries local landowners, merchants and later on millowners and manufacturers have built halls and houses in the Rochdale area.

Most of the older halls and houses were built in the 16th and 17th centuries, when wooden structures were giving way to half-timbered houses and, later on, stone or brick.

Stubley Hall in Littleborough is said to have been re-built in 1529 and the 16th century timbering is still visible on the north and west wings of the house.

The history of Pike House, situated on the fringe of Blackstone Edge Down, goes back to the early 16th century, when records showed a dwelling called Water House on the site.

In 1561 the Earl of Derby sold the site to John and James Halliwell of Ealees who carried out a major rebuilding programme.

The house became the Halliwell family seat and is believed to have gained its name from a Captain Halliwell who served with the Royalist Army during the Civil War and had his company of pikemen staying there.

Halliwells lived there until 1771, when Robert Beswicke took up residence.

His descendents lived in Pike Hall until 1917 and by 1959 the house was a ruin and threatened with demolition.

Other old halls in the area included Belfield, Hamer, Bamford, Clegg, Healey and Balderstone.

For many years the original Balderstone Hall belonged to the Holt family. It was re-built in 1713 by the Whitehead family who sold it to the Rev William Hassell in 1790.

He was Minister of Blackwater Presbyterian Church and he used the Hall as a boy's boarding school.

In 1851 the Hall came into the possession of the Radcliffe family, owners of Balderstone Mill. Joshua Radcliffe demolished the Hall, re-building once again.

In 1906 the Radcliffes left the Hall and it belonged for a time to the Pillings and then the Hamer family.

It was sold to the County Borough of Rochdale in 1930. After that it was used as a theatre, dance hall, dental clinic, an annexe to the grammar school and a folk museum and library. It was demolished in 1967.

Many of the early halls, like Castleton Hall and Schofield Hall, were either demolished in the 20th century or were allowed to fall into ruin.

Castleton Hall Estate had been bought in the 1780s by Thomas Smith from wealth generated by the woollen business.

Clegg Hall, ruinous for many years, was probably erected in the early 17th century by Theophilus Assheton.

In 1818 it was in use as a public house called the 'Hare and Hounds.'

It is currently under renovation after being derelict for many years.

As with all old houses, there are legends and fanciful stories about secret passages, ghosts, boggarts, treasure and murder.

For example, there was supposed to be a secret tunnel between Clegg Hall and Stubley Hall and Clegg Hall had a boggart.

During the 18th and 19th centuries, local merchants and manufacturers built themselves prestigious houses to match their wealth.

The Orchard, which stood on the site of the Memorial Gardens, was built in the early 18th century and was purchased by Simon Dearden in 1745.

Following the Dearden's purchase of the Manor of Rochdale from Lord Byron (the poet) in 1823, the Orchard became known as the Manor House.

They were largely absentee landlords, travelling to Rochdale for the grouse shooting on Blackstone Edge in August each year.

The Manor House was demolished in 1922 to make way for the War Memorial.

Crimble Hall, off Bury Road, was built in 1810 by John Fenton, Rochdale's first MP.

In 1892 the house was sold to William and James Baron, two brothers who divided the house in half.

In 1913 it was sold to a Colonel Hartley who restored the house to its original layout in 1919. Crimble Hall is now a restaurant.

William Fenton, one of the owners of Fenton's Bank in Rochdale, built Beaumonds on Bury Road around 1863.

After the collapse of the bank it changed hands a couple of times and in 1919 became the property of Leonard Tweedale of Tweedale and Smalley, manufacturers of textile machinery.

In 1952 it was sold to Rochdale Borough Council for use as a residential home for the elderly.

Dunster House on Manchester Road was built in 1854, with additions in 1863 by Jonathan Nield, managing partner of Fenton's Bank.

Described as Gothic Revival in design, the architect was Joseph Clarke.

Following the failure of the bank the house was sold to Joseph Heap, managing partner in the textile firm of Kelsall and Kemp (flannel manufacturers).

Early millowners often built their houses close to their mills.

Butts House on Smith Street was built in the mid-18th century by a member of the Vavasour family (probably John), who were all woollen merchants and who also had a warehouse on the Butts.

By 1828 the Butts had become the home of Henry Kelsall, of Kelsall and Kemp flannel manufacturers. He built one of his mills next to the house.

Thrum Hall in Shawclough was built in 1823 in the style of an Italianate Villa for John Travis (one of the partners of Law and Travis, cotton spinners)

In later years it was the home members of the Pilling family who were cotton spinners.

In the 1920s H B Potter, captain of the Rochdale Cricket Club, occupied it.

In Littleborough the Cleggs lived in Shore House, the Fothergills at Sladen Wood House and the Kershaws at Hollowspell.

William Law, whose family built woollen mills at Lydgate and later on, Durn, built Honresfeld on Halifax Road, a few hundred yards from his main mills, but within the countryside.

Today Honresfeld is a Leonard Cheshire home for the severely ill.

Hare Hill House was part of an estate owned by the Newall family of Littleborough and whose main residence was Town House.

In 1876 Hare Hill House was settled on H.G.F. Newall when he married.

In 1901 the property with its grounds was purchased by Littleborough Urban District Council for a 'perpetual yearly payment ' of £323.19s 8d. The house was used as Council Offices and a Carnegie Free Library, whilst the grounds became a park.

Later houses included Lauriston, Roylands and Horsecarrs - home of the Thomas Watson, silk manufacturer.

Summercastle House was built by Charles Smith, a woollen merchant and clothier in the mid 18th century - after the Vicar got permission to lease the Glebe Lands.

Summercastle was nicknamed 'Lisbon Hall' because Charles traded with Portugal. It no longer exists.

His brother Thomas, also a merchant and clothier, built a house at the bottom of Drake Street which is still standing.

Now the Nile Nightclub, it has been a private school and for many years was a public house called the Wellington Hotel.

Behind his house he had fulling mills and drying stoves.

What is now Lloyd's Bank on Yorkshire Street was built for the Vavasour family in the Georgian era.

Highfield, which belonged to the Scott family, owners of the Rochdale Observer, is now a private hospital.

Lauriston, Roylands and Horsecarrs were all used to house refugee children from Guernsey during the Second World War and all later became homes for the elderly, along with Beaumonds.

Horsecarrs is now the Emmanuel Christian School.

Cliffe House in Milnrow, built around 1860, was occupied by Thomas Heap who was a flannel manufacturer - originally at Ogden Mill, then Haugh Mill.

In 1901 he was also at Two Bridges Mill, but the 1918 Trade Directories only showed them at Haugh Mill.

Sometime between 1901 and 1907 the Heaps moved out of Cliffe House and Emmanuel Clegg moved in.

Cliffe House was demolished sometime before 1952, when the War memorial was moved to the site.

One of the later houses was Falinge Corner, which was built in mock Tudor style in 1897 for Mr F.G. Padwick, one of the directors of Kelsall and Kemp.

In 1905 Charles H. Turner of Turner Bros. (asbestos manufacturers) purchased the house.

In 1949 Falinge Corner became a guest house for visitors to TBA (Turner Brothers Asbestos).


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 07:22
Malcolm, I used Leicas for years and in a moment of penury sold them.  I used them alongside the Nikons and the Hassleblad, horses for courses.  For sheer durabilty and lens quality in terms of definition the Nikons couldn't be beaten but the Leica had two great advantages.  It was smaller and quieter.  The shutter made hardly any sound and so you could get away with snaps in places where the concrete mixer sound of the Nikon would have spoiled things.  There was another thing as well.  If you did a Leica pic and enlarged it with a Leica lens in the enlarger you got a very subtle softening of the image with no loss of definition.  Bit like the difference between sound from Vynil and CD.  I still reckon I can recognise the difference between the Leica prints and the Nikon.  I'll find a Leica pic and post it to see if it shows on the screen.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 08:01

I've scanned this in using the Heather method and posted the biggest image the site will take.  To my eye, the indefinable Leica effect shows even on the screen at relatively low res.  Pin sharp focus on the lubricators but there is a soft quality about the image that Nikon can'r capture.  It's more complicated than simple contrast.  I noticed something I'd forgotten when I got the neg out to scan it, the Leica camera left a smaller gap between negs, much smaller than Nikon.  Squeezing ever image possible out of a roll of film!


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
softsuvner
Regular Member


604 Posts
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 10:16
Stanley

I know what you mean, although it is very much like trying to explain the difference between vinyl and CD sound. If you had cropped the image square, I would have said it could have been a Hassleblad image. I think that subtle quality was very much a trait of German lenses, Zeiss as well as Leiz. 
The Japanese made some excellent lenses, but were more concerned with colour effects and later put all their effort into zoom lenses. My camera loyalty started with the Olympus OM series, ( as did Alan Mac I believe) and although I tried some of their zooms, I still came back to the standard 50mm F1.8 which has a "bite" like nothing else in their range. 
I am fully equipped with digital, but I am still trying to work my way around the thing. Too many choices, I should be like Cartier-Bresson, just get on with taking the pictures!

Malcolm 


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 12/03/2008 : 17:59
Malcolm, the nice thing about lenses is that even people like Nikon don't always get them perfect.  I have a 20mm Nikkor which I got secondhand and Roger Perry once offered to swap me a brand new Nikkor 20mm for it because it was better than his.  The Nikkor 85mm is a brilliant lens, dead simple and they got it dead right.  Roger had a Leica 85mm lens that was a Nikkor mounted on a Leica fitting and I think it was Leica that made it.  Now that was a compliment!  Must stop taling about obsolete technology on a watercolour topic.  Apologies to all.......


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Another
Traycle Mine Overseer


6250 Posts
Posted - 15/03/2008 : 09:11
Comrade, no apologies necessary. The topic is about expression and creativity and technology plays a part in all of this.

For the artists how would they paint without the technology and chemistry that developed and produces thir colours without the need to search for the minerals and grind and mix ourselves. For anyone interested in the development of artists colours have a look at the Windsor and Newton website http://www.winsornewton.com/ Nolic


" I'm a self made man who worships his creator" Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 15/03/2008 : 10:14
Do you know, I have this urge to get the Nikons out and blow some old fashioned film off........


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Another
Traycle Mine Overseer


6250 Posts
Posted - 15/03/2008 : 10:56
Go get em Comrade. Nolic


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