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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted -  25/11/2004  :  14:20
I've always been fascinated by the things people do in their spare time when they can do exactly what they want to do. Men and sheds are a particularly fertile field. Women tend to do their thing in the comfort of the house.



I was delighted to see Andy's picture of the clock movement he has made.







It struck me that we could perhaps start a new topic devoted to spare time skill. So Andy starts it off and my contribution is this:







It's a small steam engine made from scratch and is based on the Stuart 5A but a longer stroke. One of these will drive a 14 foot boat with steam at 250psi. By the way, we don't like to call them models, it's exactly the same construction and materials as a full size engine, just smaller. So come on out there, let's hear about what you make in your spare time. I reckon we could be in for some surprises!


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk
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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 28/07/2007 : 17:31

I shall just ignore the blowhole because it isn't connected with the steam passage in any way.  The progress is good because I'm working full time!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you look carefully at this pic you'll see there is a flat milled on the top of each cylinder.  I was thinking ahead to holding the cylinders perpendicular and dead square for drilling stud holes so I decided to put a register flat on each cylinder.  Dead easy because I had the valve face to work off.  I went one further then and took a skim across each valve face with the slab miller because it gives such a good finish.  Once that was done, on with facing the ends of the valve chests, turning the boss and boring them for the valve rod and stuffing box gland nut.  I threaded them all as well 5/8 X 26tpi.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I should have used the four jaw in the first place, rock solid holding.  There's a bit of a mark from the chuck jaws but nothing that can't be rubbed out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So....  the state of play tonight is that all the valve chests for the small cylinders are done and dusted and the big one is next for shaving tomorrow morning.  I've even had a shower and put me tea on......  More tomorrow.




Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted - 29/07/2007 : 16:43
Invigorated from my hols, I thought I would attempt the Spitfire from a penny project. First problem, getting the first bend right. Iv'e spent 3d in old money so far and not got it right. Oh well, if at first....... I have about 10 quids worth of penny's to go at so I'll persevere till I get a good one to progress with. I'll put the pics up to show progress, when I make some!


Ian Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 29/07/2007 : 17:47

I like the idea of bending pennies.....  One thing that might help Ian.  When coppersmiths are working non-ferocious they occasionally heat the work up and quench it because this softens it, the opposite of steel.  The hardness is work hardening due to the beating and I suppose a penny will be the same, it will be hardened in the die when it is struck and deformed.  So, try heating a penny and then quenching it in cold water....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Started the day by sorting the big valve chest out.  As I was doing it I remembered that the tail end of the valve rod runs in a blind bronze guide and this needs a thread in the end of the chest so I bored it and threaded it 5/8 at 26tpi just like the gland.  Such a good idea that I did all the smaller chests as well while I was on.  Saves another set-up in the four jaw.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The finished chest bored and threaded at each end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next job was getting the valve chest lids to size and faced.  I sharpened this saw freehand because it's too big to go in the T&C grinder.  I must have got it somewhere near right, it whistled through them.  This is the big lid, I did all the small ones together in one pass.  (i milled a square edge on them all first to give me a datum to work from)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last job, once the dimensions were square and right was to slab the faces off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the day's work.  The big valve chest finished and it's lid almost to dimension, it just needs a pass in the miller on one edge, ready for facing tomorrow and the three smaller valve chest lids looking beautiful.....  I reckon that a piece of CI perfectly sized, square and faced with a good tool finish is as near perfect beuity as you'll ever find....  But then I would say that wouldn't I....

 




Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted - 29/07/2007 : 18:39
Thanks for the tip Stanley, I'll go to the garage and get my blowlamp, a bit more maleability might help. The first attemps did show signs of fatigue at the bend. Softening it up will make it easier to work the rest of the cutting and filing when I eventually get it right. I picked up a bargain on my way home from hols yesterday, We called at a place in Wales that was selling old memorabillia and military stuff. Spent a few quid on some retro gear, picked up a couple of small brown suitcases from the 40's (great for carying your dance shoes round in) a box brownie in leather case, gas mask in case. nice cigarette case, some 40's gold rimmed specs and more pertinent to this thread, a mains powered hobby drill on stand complete with all the tools (cutters, grinders, sanders, buffing stuff etc..) the drill has variable speed and is fitted with an umbilical flexi drive for hand held precision work. Just the job for the spitfire project. Got the drill, stand and all the bits and bobs for £12, bargain!


Ian Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 01:01
The heating and quenching helped a bit Stanley, finaly got one bent exactly across the diameter, total cost so far 8d, I cheated a bit and sawed a groove on the diameter to help the bend. The old pennies are a Cupro Nickel mix, the Nickel adds to the hardness to give extra wear capabilities to the coin. Even after heating it's pretty hard but no signs of fatigue along the bend so it obviously helped. I've progressed a fair way now and not taken any pictures. Made the fuselage and basic wing shape using a screwdriver and quite a bit of belting with a hammer with the fuselage gripped in the vice, bending the wings back down. Iv'e cut out the basic shape of the fuselage and the profile of the wings leaving plenty of spare metal to create the eliptical wings. The problem is going to be the elevators and rudder, they are set a quite a high incidence, almost at the top of the fuselage, I might be able to hammer the rudder out of the metal of the fuselage, but I think I will have to solder the tailplane in place. I'm working using rack of the eye from a small diecast spitfire model which was originally on a keyring, it has a wingspan of about 1.5". The maximum size you can get making one from an old penny is about half that. I'll do a side by side picture of the diecast and my efforts so far tomorrow. I need my little fine ratty files now,  in my toolbox at work so I can pick them up tomorrow. I'm quite enjoying this, I'm going to turn it into a "sweetheart brooch" for Sally when we're doing the 40's stuff. Malcolm said that the trick was to leave the date on the finished plane, can't see how this can be done using a single penny for the plane. Does'nt matter which way you bend it, you're bound to end up cutting it off. The only possible way would be over the nose of the plane but there is'nt enough metal involved to preserve the date field of the original coin. Unless I'm doing something wrong!


Ian Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 03:15
Don't forget you are work hardening it all the time, give it a heat and quench every now and again.  Remember to soak it in the heat for longer than you'd think necessary.  Takes a long time for the core to come up to temperature because it's insulated by the outside metal.  If I was doing it I'd build a little muffle furnace out of firebrick or similar, heat that up to bright cherry red and soak the pennies for about 15 minutes.  It gives time for the crystals to rearrange themselves.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 03:16
PS.  I don't think there is nickel in the old penny, thay are bronze and I think alloyed with zinc.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 10:47

Early report today....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I milled the edge of the big valve chamber lid to size and then popped it into the lathe to face it.  No bother about a centre of course, I just want a good tool finish and flat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The box and lid finished.  Question is what next......  All the major CI p[arts are machined to size now and are ready for the fiddly bits of fitting, breaking edges, installing studs, drilling stud holes etc.  The cylinders need all this plus steam passages and valve holes cutting out.  Lots to do but where to go next?  I'd like to make the pistons and fit them but that means making the piston rods first and I'd rather leave them until I can get a check measurement off the crankshaft centre line.  So....  I'm going to make the bearing caps, bore the bearing pedestals with the cap[s in place, make the bearings and fit the crankshafts, then it's con rods and piston rods with the top end left plain.  Fit the standards and bolt to the sole plate and fit all the bottom end up.  I'll be able to get some accurate measurements for the piston rod then, finish them, make the pistons to fit and make rings.  Nowt to it.....  But I'm feeling a bit tired today so I'm going to have an easy day, a bit of a clean-up in the shed and a bit of a think.




Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 12:27
I'm sure my Seaby's "Coins of England" book, (bible to collectors and metaldetectorists) said Cupro-Nickel, I'll check it again Stanley. At work at the moment waiting for a big archive backup job to complete. Picked up my set of fine small files for the mini penny spit. Didn't know you had to maintain the cherry red for so long. Can't do a furnace setup but I wonder if I could do it on the gas hob?, probably not fierce enough to maintain the temperature. Anyway the mense of the bending, and cutting has been done. I hope my eyesight will allow me to finish it off to a reasonable standard, (I need reading glasses for close work). The plane is only about 0.75" wingspan so this is going to be a bit of a challenge. I suppose bashing small bits of metal around is harder than the big bits in some ways. I'll do some photo's when I get home from work.


Ian Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 17:39

Anything will do for a muffle as long as it's fireproof.  A bit of old asbestos downspout would be good or a space in between fire]bricks, I used to have some flat ones I used for this.  I doubt if a gas ring will do the trick, you need something a bit fiercer.  The soaking is to give the crystals time to realign once they have reached temperature.  A similar process is used for 'normalising' castings before machining, they are soaked in a furnace for perhaps an hour to let the stresses come out of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had me clean-up.  Here's a sight you don't often see in my pics, the surface plate on the bench.  I got it cheap when Tommy Rbinsons sold out in Rochdale and it's brilliant for fitting on.  I'm not too bothered about the accuracy, it's near enough for me.  Another thing worth mentioning is the bench.  Made out of 2" mahogany boards on a dead solid fram and fastened to the wall and the floor.  Not a lot of point having a six inch vise mounted on something that won't stand it!  I had a vacuum round and cleaned up most of the CI dust and chippings and even washed the wipers and hung them outside to dry....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A clean tablecloth and a root through the drawers and the stockpile.  All the bronze castings are there for the main bearings, eight sets in all.  Eight CI pedestal caps which need cleaning up and sizing before being fitted to the sole plate ready for boring.  The serious lumps are for the crankshafts.  In order to make the crankshafts complete with balance weights we need 3" bar.  The piece on the left is 3" and long enough to make the crankshaft for the compound.  The other two pieces will come out at 2 3/4" but I can get the shafts for the smaller engines out of them with smaller counterweights.  I've never been convinced that the counerweights do much good in practice, I've never seen them on a normal mill engine.  I'll cut the lumps down to the right size for the small engines, about 9" long and then I'll be ready for some serious turning.....

 




Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 18:50
Re the coinage Stanley, I've looked again at my Seaby's. Copper was used in the low denomination coinage unti 1860 (coins with the "Young Head" of Queen Victoria), from 1860 onwards you were correct with Bronze, it does'nt mention any Zinc content. Cupro-Nickel was introduced in 1947 as a replacement for the silver coinage to preserve the silver stocks for repayment of Lend-Lease after WWII. Threepenny bits were made from Nickle Brass. Silver coinage was .925 up to 1920 when it was degraded to .500 due to the steep price rise of silver. This continued until the Cupro Nickel was introduced in 1947 again to keep the costs down. Bronze continued to be used for the low denomination currency through decimalisation until 1992 when it was replaced with Copper coated Steel. £1 coins are made from Nickel Brass like the old threepenny bits. £2 coins are bi-metal, Cupro Nickel surrounded by Nickel Brass.


Ian Go to Top of Page
pluggy
Geek


1164 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 20:43
 Machining crankshafts from the solid sounds like fun.  I suppose drop forging isn't practical for the small numbers of steam engines built these days....  Been away on my hols, thats why I haven't been around the last week or so.  I got a serious fix catching up.



Need computer work ?
"http://www.stsr.co.uk"

Pluggy's Household Monitor Go to Top of Page
panbiker
Senior Member


2301 Posts
Posted - 30/07/2007 : 21:48

Here are the pictures of my progress so far with the Spitfire,

First one shows the basic bends and cutouts to the old penny.

Second picture shows it in relation to the small diecast model that I am using as a guide, looks like I might be a bit short on the fuselage at the tail section, although the fuselage has to be thinned down some yet and the wings will be reduced when I create the eliptical shape. I still have to figure out the proplem of the tailplane and rudder, there should be a bit of leeway to extend the fuselage to get the proportions right at this stage.

Third picture shows the scale I am working to. Would appreciate comments from Malcolm who set me off on this one when he next visits the thread. So far I've used a small vice a hammer a screwdriver, blowlamp, pair of pliers and a juniour hacksaw, not exactly precision tools for such a small job but I'm getting there......slowly..



Edited by - panbiker on 30 July 2007 21:52:43


Ian Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 31/07/2007 : 04:38
It's looking good to me!  Making things at very small scale is far harder than it looks.  I the case of steam engines where you have to make components to fit each other it gets worse.  Quite easy to work to a thou but that equates to about an eighth of an inch in a full size engine so actually too sloppy.  Many engines are built an inch to the foot and by the time you scale the valve rods and fittings you are into watchmaking.  As for bronze, it's a generic term that covers lots of alloys based on copper that can vary from the soft high leaded bronzes to the incredibly tough Aluminium bronzes which are a turner's joke.  It always amazes me how mixing two soft metals can make such tough stuff.  I was wrong with Zinc as the alloying metal, copper and zinc = brass.  It's copper and tin for old pennies.  The tin toughens the copper up, they use about 10% in the alloy.  Pure copper is too soft and wears quickly.


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 31/07/2007 : 05:06
Pluggy, making shafts out of the solid is very boring, hours of interrupted cuts and all done between centres so you have to be careful how you go and keep the tools sharp.  Many kits for engines still have forged shafts but as B&P found out with their three-throw pumps years ago, a shaft machined out of solid is stronger than a forging if it's better metal.  Theoretically the forging is better but it doesn't always work out that way.  Thing about these shafts is they are plenty strong enough and look good when made out of one piece of steel.  Lots of people make the components and build them up but no good for a serious engine that might actually have to do some work like these....


Stanley Challenger Graham




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stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
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