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captainslarty
New Member


31 Posts
Posted -  26/01/2010  :  11:28
John Sagar, My partners Great Grandad, got these 2 boats to transport stone salterforth - according to our hero Stanley's research - Cheers Stanley !)
Any info or pics, would be fantastic !... if they are still about I would even be interested in buying one !
They were named after his daughters, Alice n Ide Sagar...

Joe Hanley, Jayne Sagar, Yacht Ruddles, Portugal at the mo....


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2010 : 11:51
My Grandfather worked for Sagars as a stone dresser. The two boats in question may have been built at Wilkinsons yard at Salterforth, now the home of the East Lancs boat club. I would be surprised if either are still around as they were wooden boats. One stone barge was badly damaged at the loading point. Stone was brought down to the canal on a rope worked incline railway, the boat was damaged when a rope parted and the wagon ran free, left the rails at the bend by the canal and went straight into the boat, sinking it at its moorings. Members of the Wilkinson family are I understand still living locally. As late as the sixties it was still possible to see the remains of this railway and you could  follow its route from quarry to canal. There was also a tramway in the top quarry, I remember visiting this quarry from school the main attraction being the big stone saw close to the quarry entrance at the top of Tubber Hill.


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captainslarty
New Member


31 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2010 : 12:07
Hi Thomo, never considered they were wooden !!!! doh !.. Just presumed steel... shows my tender age of 52 lol....
Many thanks for the valuable info though, Excellent stuff !
Re the railway, did it go to the quarry that is now dales view caravan park ?.
I am very interested in the actual quarries that John Sagar and Family mined in that period...  I notice 2 disused quarries at the top of the lane leading from the anchor to near dales view, one is now a scrap yard... where they anything to do with the sagars ?
Would love to get hold of more info and any pictures you, or others may have.?? or ANY other info....

Again, thankyou for the incredibly valuable info.
Joe Hanley / Jayne Sagar, UK Yacht Ruddles, Portugal.

Joe.


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thomo
Barlick Born Old Salt


2021 Posts
Posted - 26/01/2010 : 14:00
Both of those quarries were Sagars, one is still a scrapyard, Watsons, the other is currently empty and up for sale, I do not recall a link between the two railways  but it is probable, having said that, the stone from the top quarry left the site as stone window sets and the like whereas the stone from the others left as large lumps. A Sagar family of quarry owners lived in a big house on Old Skipton Rd at Colne, may have been the same Sagar or a relative. Where at in Portugal are you, my desktop is a view of one of our favourite places, the marina at Lagos.


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2010 : 07:20


This boat is moored at the bottom of the tramway that came down from Park Close quarry, about 1900. Park Close wasn't a Sagar quarry, first mention I have of Park Close is a mortgage prior to 1867 and names mentioned are John Lonsdale, Joseph Barritt and William Barritt. William (These could have been the people who lent the money and it could have been Roundell propert still at this time) Bracewell (Billycock) was appointed trustee under a deed of assignment for the benefit of the creditors of 'the former owner'. In  this capacity he sold the property in 1867 by auction and purchased it himself in 1870. It was then that he built the brickworks just below Park Close.In 1887 it was sold when the Bracewell interests were all foreclosed by the Craven Bank. In 1891 there is a record of the 'Salterforth Brick and Stone Company ' tendering for the boundary wall at Whitemoor waterworks.Last entry I have is in 1957 when Barlick UDC rented Park Close from Woodhall Quarries Ltd of Pudsey for use as a tip, rent was £80 per annum.

However, I may be wrong in my assumption that Bracewell built the brickworks because sometime between 1780 and 1840 the stable block at Old Gledstone was built using 'bricks made on the estate'. At that time the Roundell estate owned a lot of land above Salterforth (The Sagar quarries were all leased from the Roundells, later called the Gledstone Estate. ) There is no evidence of any other brickworks apart from at Park Close so it may have been the Roundells who built it. The tramway from Park Close went directly down to the canal on the west of the lane and behind Burdock Hill. That's where the pic was taken.

The Sagars worked the quarries on the east side of Salterforth Drag, Loose Games  at the top of Tubber Hill and a couple of smaller delphs above the top road on the Blacko side of the Fanny Grey. There was a tramway with Jubilee trucks from the Sagar quarry on the drag to a wharf at Park Bridge on the New Road, you can still see traces of themoorings in the grass. I walked the line about twenty years ago and there was evidence that suggested there may have been a track from the quarry on the drag to Loose Games. The offal from these quarries was tipped below the quarries and much of it was used for the roadbed of Kelbrook New Road in the 1930s. Billy Brooks could remember the Sagar tramway and he said that in later years they had a small loco on it, before that they dropped the trucks by gravity and hauled them back by horses. He could remember the engine coming down too fast one day and derailing on a sharp bend near the canal.

The only rope haulage I have seen mentioned was from a steam winch on the triangular island at the top of the drag. This was used to assist the stone carts to get up onto the top road and may have been a joint effort used by both quarries, it would make sense. This was used until the inter war years when they went over to motor transport. See my articles in Stanley's View called 'Rock Solid' which are the recollections of Jack Platt who worked for Sagars and gives a lot of information. 

 


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2010 : 07:57
I've had another furtle in the index, here are some entries that are pertinent.

09/08/1929. Sagar and Son asked the council if they could use the unfinished New Road to cart away tramways at present laid at Higher Park Farm to Earby Station. (Sounds as though this was when the tramways were scrapped. )

Harold Duxbury said that he remembered the trucks coming down to Park Bridge being controlled by a man riding on the trucks using a brake. He said they pushed them back up by hand but Billi Brooks said a horse walked down with them to pull tham back up. Harold said they were Jubillee tipping trucks with 10" wheels and they held about 25cwt.

Jim Baily rang me in 2003 and said that his mother, Margaret Reeve married James Marginson Bailey and they lived in a cottage (now demolished) inside the bend at the bottom of the Drag. Jim Reeve worked as a stonemason at Sagar;s quarry and had a relation called Jack Sagar who was Jim Rushton's second in command of the Barlick Communist Party (founded 1921). In the More Looms dispute in 1932 Jack was blacklisted and eventually worked at Bristol Tractors as a paint sprayer until he retired.

I think the Salterforth Brick and Stone Works was owned by two partners, Whitham and Bill Moss. Bill Moss failed in the partnership and after that Park Close was called Witham's Quarry. Whitham was originally a pork butcher in Church Street and worked the quarry as well. Whan Moss failed him he moved to Salterforth and lived in the top cottage on the drag just below the quarry.

In 1905 John Sagar and his son Sidney started with about 200 looms in Bankfield No 2 shed. 

Billy Brooks says that the Sagar quarries closed because there was a claim against them for sillicosis and as they weren't insured for this they couldn't pay.

 In evidence given to the Light Railway Commissioners in 1906 the following details were given as evidence of the size of the quarry industry in Barlick. (Tubber Hill refers to the line of quarries on the top road starting with Loose Games. 'Waterworks' refers to the small delphs above the top road beyond the Fanny Grey)

Sagar Brothers, Tubber Hill, 20 men. Edward Smith, Tubber Hill 20 men. John Sagar, Tubber Hill, 30 men. John Sagar Salterforth Quarry, 50 men. George Sagar No.s 1&2 Waterworks, 30 men. Dalton and Higgins Waterworks, 50 men. Salterforth Stone and Brick Co (Park Close) 50 men.

[Best to treat these figures as over-estimates because they were trying to make a case to extend the Barlick branch line to Gisburn. However, the names of the people operating the quarries will be correct. This was a legal document.]

Hope this lot gives you some clues. I haven't looked at it for a while and on balance I favour Roundells as having started the brickworks before Bracewell got his hands on Park Close. I only have hearsay for Bracewell but David Nelson's information is specific and backed up by solid fact.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
captainslarty
New Member


31 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2010 : 14:40
Hi Stanley n Thomo, !
Firstly, Thom, we are in Povoa Da Varzim, Atlantic Coast, I know Lagos well !... I used to fly mircolights from the small aerodrome there too. The marina is rather expensive these days for cost consciuos cruisers like us :) .....  but, is rather nice... we hope to head for the Azores in June this year, will see how things go.. !

Stanley, now, I am confused ha ha,,,,

My maps show salterforth drag, where it meats the top road, running East to West, so what do you mean by the 'East' side ?
Where exactly is Loose Games, I talked to Brain Sagar this morning, means nothing to him, could this be the site of Dales View caravan park now, the ex Quarry, believed run by John Sagr etc ?.
Brian thinks the owner originally of waht is now dales view could be Amos Nelson ? .
Also, re railway or rail lines to the canal, surely the route from Salterforth drag would have taken them to the wharf on the canal to the SE of the Anchor pub ?, also, there is evidence fo a pathway, possibly a railway, if you look on google earth pro, from dales view (Quarry) TO park bridge ? which would make sense, as well as a pthway (railway) from the drag to the wharf I mentioned above... from the drag to park bridge would have been apparantly not feasible ?,
 I am tending to think there were two tracks from what is now dales view, to park bridge, and another from the drag quarries to the wharf south of the anchor... ? (Speculation here :) )
Also, what use would there have been for the steam whinch on the triangle at the top of the drag apart from getting a link fron the higher lane quarries down to the wharf, mind you, as said, I am confused totally now haha...

Another question, alas :( , do you know the location of what was called bleakhouse ? apparantly Ida and Alice Sagar lived there until they died, now demolished I think......

Dont know if you have google earth, but the aerial views clearly show waht COULD be an ex link line from the upper quarries to park bridge, AND from the drag quarries to the other wharf....

Thanks again to all you guys and for the help
Confused, in Portugal... :)
Joe. 


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captainslarty
New Member


31 Posts
Posted - 27/01/2010 : 16:02
Note for Stanley, just read through rock solid, absolutely superb info ! mnay thanks, was searching for hard rock, doh, no wonder I couldnt find it... seems as if loose games IS now dales view !... cheers....
Joe


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 28/01/2010 : 05:46
You're right, north side but it was early in the morning. You've answered your own question about Loose Games. I am reading a lot about the Civil War at the moment and both James and Charles issued a 'Book of Sports' which was an instruction as to what sports and games (included dancing) could be indulged in after church service. I have a suspicion that the name 'Loose Games' refers to an area set aside for the rougher of these sports but haven't confirmed it yet. The evidence for the name is an old estate map and these were very accrate when it came to boundaries and names.

I did an srticle based on Park Close yesterday and it will be in the BET next week. I always post them on the site the day of publication so have a shufti in 8 days.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
wendyf
Senior Member


1439 Posts
Posted - 28/01/2010 : 07:49
I searched the 19th century newspaper collection yesterday for "Salterforth" and found a couple of relevant bits..
From The Leeds Mercury, Monday September 5th 1887, under the heading "New Companys".
Salterforth Stone & Brick Company Ltd. Registered on the 25th ult. with a capital of £5000 in £10 shares, to purchase the Park Close Farm with quarry buildings & co at Salterforth, York. from the executors of William Bracewell.The subscribers are E. Heap, Burnley, contractor, 1 share; H. Marsden, Salterforth, boat owner, 1; T. Bell, Burnley, architect, 1; J.Heap, Nelson, canal agent, 1; M. Hawley, Nelson, contractor, 1; P.W. Bateman, Skipton, canal inspector, 1; and J. Hawley, contractor,1.

In The Liverpool Mercury  Wednesday August 11th 1897, under the heading "Partnerships dissolved".
George Sagar & William Chew trading as Geo. Sagar & Co. Higher Lee Quarry, Salterforth, Yorkshire, stonemerchants. W. Chew retires.

Also in The Leeds Mercury Saturday November 7th 1818, there is a sale notice for 25 acres of pasture in Salterforth which includes The Park Close. No owner is mentioned but the occupier of the land was James Hartley.
Joe did you notice the 1940's aerial photos available on mario? Worth having a look, and if you overlay it with " aerial photo information" Bleak House and Rest Harrow appear across the road from Dales View.


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belle
VIP Member


6502 Posts
Posted - 28/01/2010 : 09:27
Hi Joe, don't know if this is any help, but I was looking up canal info last night and by googling Leeds Liverpool canal came upon a site the reproduced many copies of "Cloggs and Gansey" the newsletter of the Leeds Liverpool society. In it there were refs to many of the boats ( I am pretty sure your names were amongst them) and some fantastic pictures, I even found the one and only picture I have ever seen of my grandfathers lock cottage, now sadly demolished.


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captainslarty
New Member


31 Posts
Posted - 28/01/2010 : 15:12
Belle, can you give me a link, I got so many results... ????

Joe n Jayne


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 28/01/2010 : 17:18
Thanks for that Wendy. Straight into the index! Good references. The seller in 1818 would almost certainly have been the Roundell Estate. Very bad tome economically due to the Napoleonic Wars.


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
captainslarty
New Member


31 Posts
Posted - 28/01/2010 : 17:37
yes, agreed, :)
However, Stanley, my research through brian sagar, seem like the loose games etc, n all the quarries, icluding sydney n edgar, came to an end due to a claim, not due to silicosis, but by Jeff Herdestry (Geoff?), known as blind geoftt (Jeff) having being blinded by a blaster that didnt go off in loose games, he poked it with a steel rod to see what happened,,,...... that was certainly 1933 to 42 ?
Joe...
amazing wot cums up when ya dig... ha ha---
gonna post another topic on the main re the sagars n quarries.. thats me topic n area of interest at the mo... thanks to all, n thomo etc..

Edited by - captainslarty on 28/01/2010 17:39:13


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captainslarty
New Member


31 Posts
Posted - 28/01/2010 : 17:46
N Stanley, for your records, go and get a transcript, tape recording or whatever mp3 fangled thing you use lol from Brian Sagar at Dales View. he is not THAT old lol, but he knows so much. (Abt 76 77 years now, directly related to the quarry sagars erc)..
you NEED to add this, and he is a super guy..
Joe


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Stanley
Local Historian & Old Fart


36804 Posts
Posted - 29/01/2010 : 05:30
Thanks for finding me work... I have enough on my plate, why don't you do it and post it on Oneguy?


Stanley Challenger Graham




Barlick View
stanley at barnoldswick.freeserve.co.uk Go to Top of Page
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